Forum Immigration Poland - Polska

[DMOesq]

OK, here is the short version.

My grandfather was born in Poland in 1914. My grandmother was born in U.S.S.R. My mother was born in Poland in 1946. My grandfather, grandmother and mother emigrated to Israel in November/December 1950. They later emigrated to the U.S., which is where I was born.

Did I obtain Polish citizenship at birth? Can I get confirmation of citizenship and a passport from the Polish government?

My confusion is over Israel's Law of Return of 1950. Did it grant automatic citizenship (thus causing an issue under the 1920 Polish law), or was citizenship only granted after the Law of Nationality of 1952 (thereby occurring after the 1951 Polish law)? My grandfather has since passed away and my grandmother cannot remember when she got citizenship in Israel. Thus, the confusion.

Thanks for all you help and wisdom,

Don

[alyehoud]

OK, here is the short version.

My grandfather was born in Poland in 1914. My grandmother was born in U.S.S.R. My mother was born in Poland in 1946. My grandfather, grandmother and mother emigrated to Israel in November/December 1950. They later emigrated to the U.S., which is where I was born.

Did I obtain Polish citizenship at birth? Can I get confirmation of citizenship and a passport from the Polish government?

My confusion is over Israel's Law of Return of 1950. Did it grant automatic citizenship (thus causing an issue under the 1920 Polish law), or was citizenship only granted after the Law of Nationality of 1952 (thereby occurring after the 1951 Polish law)? My grandfather has since passed away and my grandmother cannot remember when she got citizenship in Israel. Thus, the confusion.

Thanks for all you help and wisdom,

Don

You're grandfather was born in Poland before Poland was a country, or at least the modern Republic of Poland (1918 I believe?). Your mother, though, should be a citizen. The burden is on you to prove documents showing this, i.e. her Polish passport (probably best thing you can use) or her Polish birth certificate (this is only somewhat useful, because it doesn't actually prove someone is/was a citizen). It wasn't until 1951 that a mother could pass citizenship to her children (since your dad's not Polish, or a Polish citizen), but since you're obviously born later than that I see no problem with that, but I could be wrong on this item.

As far as Israel is concerned, as long as nothing took place there (ie. marriages) of you or your mother, I would just pretend that it never happened. For purposes of the Polish government, they didn't go there. You will, however, then need to show them your mother's POST X-X-1953 naturalization certificate (FROM THE US ONLY) showing she was naturalized after that date (look in up in previous posts here). If she wasn't ever naturalized you need to wait about a year for a letter from USCIS stating that they have no record of her naturalization. If she become a citizen before that day in 1951, you're SOL .

Good luck, I hope I didn't miss anything, but if I did, I'm sure one of the many enlightened people here will point you in the correct direction.

[DMOesq]

You're grandfather was born in Poland before Poland was a country, or at least the modern Republic of Poland (1918 I believe?). Your mother, though, should be a citizen. The burden is on you to prove documents showing this, i.e. her Polish passport (probably best thing you can use) or her Polish birth certificate (this is only somewhat useful, because it doesn't actually prove someone is/was a citizen). It wasn't until 1951 that a mother could pass citizenship to her children (since your dad's not Polish, or a Polish citizen), but since you're obviously born later than that I see no problem with that, but I could be wrong on this item.

As far as Israel is concerned, as long as nothing took place there (ie. marriages) of you or your mother, I would just pretend that it never happened. For purposes of the Polish government, they didn't go there. You will, however, then need to show them your mother's POST X-X-1953 naturalization certificate (FROM THE US ONLY) showing she was naturalized after that date (look in up in previous posts here). If she wasn't ever naturalized you need to wait about a year for a letter from USCIS stating that they have no record of her naturalization. If she become a citizen before that day in 1951, you're SOL .

Good luck, I hope I didn't miss anything, but if I did, I'm sure one of the many enlightened people here will point you in the correct direction.

Alyehoud:

Thanks for the response. No marriages or anything in Israel. Naturalized in U.S. in the 60's. All I have for my mother is her Polish birth certificate, no passport. I also have my grandparents Polish marriage certificate.

Don

[alyehoud]

You're grandfather was born in Poland before Poland was a country, or at least the modern Republic of Poland (1918 I believe?). Your mother, though, should be a citizen. The burden is on you to prove documents showing this, i.e. her Polish passport (probably best thing you can use) or her Polish birth certificate (this is only somewhat useful, because it doesn't actually prove someone is/was a citizen). It wasn't until 1951 that a mother could pass citizenship to her children (since your dad's not Polish, or a Polish citizen), but since you're obviously born later than that I see no problem with that, but I could be wrong on this item.

As far as Israel is concerned, as long as nothing took place there (ie. marriages) of you or your mother, I would just pretend that it never happened. For purposes of the Polish government, they didn't go there. You will, however, then need to show them your mother's POST X-X-1953 naturalization certificate (FROM THE US ONLY) showing she was naturalized after that date (look in up in previous posts here). If she wasn't ever naturalized you need to wait about a year for a letter from USCIS stating that they have no record of her naturalization. If she become a citizen before that day in 1951, you're SOL .

Good luck, I hope I didn't miss anything, but if I did, I'm sure one of the many enlightened people here will point you in the correct direction.

Alyehoud:

Thanks for the response. No marriages or anything in Israel. Naturalized in U.S. in the 60's. All I have for my mother is her Polish birth certificate, no passport. I also have my grandparents Polish marriage certificate.

Don

It might be enough, only one way to find out - send it in..

Anyone else ever send in a confirmation of citizenship without passport, and just birth cert??

[polskiarg]

My grandfather, grandmother and mother emigrated to Israel in November/December 1950. They later emigrated to the U.S., which is where I was born.

Did I obtain Polish citizenship at birth? Can I get confirmation of citizenship and a passport from the Polish government?

My confusion is over Israel's Law of Return of 1950. Did it grant automatic citizenship (thus causing an issue under the 1920 Polish law), or was citizenship only granted after the Law of Nationality of 1952 (thereby occurring after the 1951 Polish law)? My grandfather has since passed away and my grandmother cannot remember when she got citizenship in Israel. Thus, the confusion.

It's necessary to add that, meanwhile,apart from the citizenship acts of 1920 and 1951, also other acts concerning citizenship were issued. On their basis Polish citizenship was lost by persons who emigrated to Federal Republic of Germany and Israel.

However some people by taking a court action managed to reinstate their lost citizenship.

it would be a good idea to consult a lawyer about your situation.

[polskiarg]

As far as Israel is concerned, as long as nothing took place there (ie. marriages) of you or your mother, I would just pretend that it never happened. For purposes of the Polish government, they didn't go there.

I agree... I woudn't mention it... but in the application they ask you a lot of questions about where you've been since you left Poland and arrived in the US and they ask you to prove with immigration doccuments those dates.

[alyehoud]

As far as Israel is concerned, as long as nothing took place there (ie. marriages) of you or your mother, I would just pretend that it never happened. For purposes of the Polish government, they didn't go there.

I agree... I woudn't mention it... but in the application they ask you a lot of questions about where you've been since you left Poland and arrived in the US and they ask you to prove with immigration doccuments those dates.

My application didn't ask that; in fact it barely asked any questions of me. My address, where I lived in Poland, and a few other very generic questions.

On another note, I know that the Polish government (either the President or PM) recently agreed to allow Jews who lost citizenship by moving to Israel in the 50's (forget the dates exactly) to regain citizenship regardless of the law of the time stating that they will lose it. There the parliament was against it. Not sure what came of it, but this was only maybe 3 or 4 months ago if I recall correctly. May want to check that...

[DMOesq]

Alyehoud:

On another note, I know that the Polish government (either the President or PM) recently agreed to allow Jews who lost citizenship by moving to Israel in the 50's (forget the dates exactly) to regain citizenship regardless of the law of the time stating that they will lose it. There the parliament was against it. Not sure what came of it, but this was only maybe 3 or 4 months ago if I recall correctly. May want to check that...

I know of the recent decision regarding Jews who had to leave in 1968 and I know of the special provision for Polish citizens who emigrated to Israel from 1958-1984. However, these do not appear to be applicable to my family's situation. Is there something else that happened recently? I can't seem to find anything through searches.

Don

[alyehoud]

Alyehoud:

On another note, I know that the Polish government (either the President or PM) recently agreed to allow Jews who lost citizenship by moving to Israel in the 50's (forget the dates exactly) to regain citizenship regardless of the law of the time stating that they will lose it. There the parliament was against it. Not sure what came of it, but this was only maybe 3 or 4 months ago if I recall correctly. May want to check that...

I know of the recent decision regarding Jews who had to leave in 1968 and I know of the special provision for Polish citizens who emigrated to Israel from 1958-1984. However, these do not appear to be applicable to my family's situation. Is there something else that happened recently? I can't seem to find anything through searches.

Don

My apologies, I mixed up two different things - the 1958 to 1984 provision and a new thing where the Polish President on a trip to Israel for it's 60th anniversary gave citizenship back to some Jews who lost it for leaving prior to that. Not sure if it was a one time thing, or a new precedent, but it happened. The President of Poland has the power to grant citizenship, from what I've read. It may be worth looking into a little more, but chances aren't good for this.

Best thing I can advise is to really try to find a passport, even grandparents. If not, you'll have to try with both your mother's and your grandparent's birth certificates and ideally Polish marriage certificate. Check back in previous posts (and see Part 1 of this thread) to see if anyone else has used only birth certificates and been successful.

[polskiarg]

Best thing I can advise is to really try to find a passport, even grandparents. If not, you'll have to try with both your mother's and your grandparent's birth certificates and ideally Polish marriage certificate. Check back in previous posts (and see Part 1 of this thread) to see if anyone else has used only birth certificates and been successful.

My father didn't present his passport but it was enaugh a document from the police, which had the translation of my grandmother's passport with all the information in it (ie. passport number, visas name of my father and my grand father etc.)

As of what you said previously about the questions they ask on where you've been since you left poland, my father had to answer all the countries of residence from the day he left poland until he arrived in Argentina . Those questions are applicable to persons that emigrated between 1920 and 1951.
Obviously neither you nor me had to answer those questions because we were born after 1951.

In any case I would avoid telling them that they lived in Israel.

[Taroula]

Can anyone please recommend a lawyer that they have used to apply for/obtain confirmation of Polish citizenship?

I have seen a handful of sites of lawyers that claim to be experts in this area (such as Krzysztof Banek, Lukasz Piotrowski, Piotr Staczek, etc) and I am simply wondering if anyone has any experience with any of these lawyers? Or has anyone used a lawyer that they have been partiuclarly happy with whose contact details they would be willing to share?

Many thanks!

[curiousgeorge]

My apologies, I mixed up two different things - the 1958 to 1984 provision and a new thing where the Polish President on a trip to Israel for it's 60th anniversary gave citizenship back to some Jews who lost it for leaving prior to that. Not sure if it was a one time thing, or a new precedent, but it happened. The President of Poland has the power to grant citizenship, from what I've read. It may be worth looking into a little more, but chances aren't good for this.

In case anyone is reading this and gets confused with the reference of the laws, here is summary of the law which was mentioned:


Special provisions for Polish citizens who immigrated to Israel from 1958 to 1984:
Pursuant provisions of Act of January 23 1958, Polish citizens lost their nationality if:
- They submitted an application for changing their Polish citizenship into Israeli citizenship and were issued emigration travel documents to Israel
- Entered Israel to reside in the country and became Israeli citizens. Those persons and their descendants can regain Polish nationality by applying for Polish citizenship at the nearest Polish consulate.

[Harjeet]

We submitted all our paper work Feb 2008, however now I have a few questions, merely because it is burning my brain.

1920-1951 women lost their citizenship through marriage to a foreign citizen?

I swear I have read this, but now I have not been able to find this rule at any consulate site and in all the documentation I have rechecked.

Did I misread something? Is this marriage rule somewhat ignored by Poland? Are most documents online not accurate?


For those who are applying for their Polish Citizen Confirmation, waiting for a result is the worst part of the experience!

[DMOesq]

You're grandfather was born in Poland before Poland was a country, or at least the modern Republic of Poland (1918 I believe?). Your mother, though, should be a citizen. The burden is on you to prove documents showing this, i.e. her Polish passport (probably best thing you can use) or her Polish birth certificate (this is only somewhat useful, because it doesn't actually prove someone is/was a citizen). It wasn't until 1951 that a mother could pass citizenship to her children (since your dad's not Polish, or a Polish citizen), but since you're obviously born later than that I see no problem with that, but I could be wrong on this item.

As far as Israel is concerned, as long as nothing took place there (ie. marriages) of you or your mother, I would just pretend that it never happened. For purposes of the Polish government, they didn't go there. You will, however, then need to show them your mother's POST X-X-1953 naturalization certificate (FROM THE US ONLY) showing she was naturalized after that date (look in up in previous posts here). If she wasn't ever naturalized you need to wait about a year for a letter from USCIS stating that they have no record of her naturalization. If she become a citizen before that day in 1951, you're SOL .

Good luck, I hope I didn't miss anything, but if I did, I'm sure one of the many enlightened people here will point you in the correct direction.

Alyehoud:

Thanks for the response. No marriages or anything in Israel. Naturalized in U.S. in the 60's. All I have for my mother is her Polish birth certificate, no passport. I also have my grandparents Polish marriage certificate.

Don

Alyehoud:

My error. I should note that my mother and grandfather were naturalized in Israel in the mid-1950s. As such, it says "Israeli" as the former nationality on their U.S. Naturalization papers. I think (not sure) my grandfather served in the IDF reserve as a firefighter (Is this inactive?). Are these problems? My understanding was that as long as my grandfather was determined to be a Polish citizen at the time my mother was born (1946), she was Polish. And, as long as she did not acquire another citizenship before 1951 (When the law changed), she was still a Polish citizen and could not lose it unless she requested to lose it. Am I wrong about this?

Don

[alyehoud]

Alyehoud:

My error. I should note that my mother and grandfather were naturalized in Israel in the mid-1950s. As such, it says "Israeli" as the former nationality on their U.S. Naturalization papers. I think (not sure) my grandfather served in the IDF reserve as a firefighter (Is this inactive?). Are these problems? My understanding was that as long as my grandfather was determined to be a Polish citizen at the time my mother was born (1946), she was Polish. And, as long as she did not acquire another citizenship before 1951 (When the law changed), she was still a Polish citizen and could not lose it unless she requested to lose it. Am I wrong about this?

Don

Please keep in mind I am not a professional, but I did stay at a holiday inn last night. Just kidding, but I am, as are most of us, speaking to you from personal experience and general knowledge of the subject. Nevertheless, I don't see any further disqualifying issues, but you will have to spend extra time now with extra documents and government agencies. Now I have some questions for you to help direct you a little more...

1. Was your mother 17+ at the time of her emigration? If so, she was likely in the military. This is technically disqualifying for both your mom and grandfather, but Israel knows what sacrifices it's citizens make in terms of their other citizenships. In your case, the more documentation the better since it's sort of "iffy" with no official proof of citizenship for your ancestor(s).

2. Continuation of #1 - do you speak Hebrew? If so, מצוין as you'll need to find and contact the Army, for a letter stating mother DID NOT serve in the IDF (if she didn't leave before military age, because yes they are aware). They will do this for you. May want to get it for grandpa too, just for good measure and in case they request something along those lines; won't be any more hassle. (As far as I know, being a firefighter in Israel, even then, was "national service" and not part of military duty (i.e. military service). Kind of like today, woman are allowed to choose military or national service. The latter is more like volunteering. In your grandfather's case, though, he probably was in fact a soldier at some point in time, as is required.) If you don't speak Hebrew, learn it (and Polish if/when you're become a citizen ), and then also have someone call the Army for you. Still got family there? They'd be a huge help, I'm sure.

So back to your post, in a nutshell, yes, as long as your mother became a citizen and did not do anything to lose it, or it can be "shown" she didn't i.e. letters stating thus for IDF), it's all good.

Since you said no marriages or anything took place in Israel, I guess that's all you'll need to document, along with maybe immigration/emigration documents?


Edit: Being as your case is slightly complicated, you may want to consider speaking to an attorney and getting their advice before proceeding. One mentioned here before, I Charsky in Tel Aviv obviously can help with all of your issues, including the Israeli documents. Probably cost 800-1500 dollars, though.

[DMOesq]

Alyehoud:

I AM a professional, but I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night! I am also smart enough to know that a good lawyer is indispensible when dealing with issues such as this and intend to speak to I. Charsky. I am just feeling this out now so I do not waste time and money if it is a definate "No".

With regard to my mother, she was born in Poland in 1946. Thus, she was a minor when they left Poland and arrived in Israel. No IDF service at all, so no issue. With my grandfather, any service which occurred (whether military or national service) most likely did not occur until after January 16, 1951.

As to my statement that they naturalized in Israel in the mid-50s, my assumption as to their acquiring citizenship is based upon my understanding that the Law of Return only granted Jews the right to immigrate and that it is the 1952 Law of Nationality granted citizenship (based upon the law of return)? Thus, on January 17, 1951, they were still Polish citizens. However, my next question is, since the Law of Nationality granted citizenship retroactively to those who immigrated into Israel in 1950 under the Law of Return, would that be considered getting foreign citizenship prior to the January 16, 1951 under the 1920-1951 Polish Citizenship law? Thus, causing a loss of citizenship.

Isn't this fun! I have a headache!

Finally, my hebrew borders on horrible to non-existent (My Bar-Mitzvah was more than 25 years ago!). However, I do have many family freinds in Israel that could help getting docuemnts. I probably will just the lawyers get them since they are in Israel.

Don

[alyehoud]

Alyehoud:

I AM a professional, but I didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn last night! I am also smart enough to know that a good lawyer is indispensible when dealing with issues such as this and intend to speak to I. Charsky. I am just feeling this out now so I do not waste time and money if it is a definate "No".

With regard to my mother, she was born in Poland in 1946. Thus, she was a minor when they left Poland and arrived in Israel. No IDF service at all, so no issue. With my grandfather, any service which occurred (whether military or national service) most likely did not occur until after January 16, 1951.

As to my statement that they naturalized in Israel in the mid-50s, my assumption as to their acquiring citizenship is based upon my understanding that the Law of Return only granted Jews the right to immigrate and that it is the 1952 Law of Nationality granted citizenship (based upon the law of return)? Thus, on January 17, 1951, they were still Polish citizens. However, my next question is, since the Law of Nationality granted citizenship retroactively to those who immigrated into Israel in 1950 under the Law of Return, would that be considered getting foreign citizenship prior to the January 16, 1951 under the 1920-1951 Polish Citizenship law? Thus, causing a loss of citizenship.

Isn't this fun! I have a headache!

Finally, my hebrew borders on horrible to non-existent (My Bar-Mitzvah was more than 25 years ago!). However, I do have many family freinds in Israel that could help getting docuemnts. I probably will just the lawyers get them since they are in Israel.

Don

I did note the "Esq" part of your name! All I know about Charsky is that he's good, but very busy. Ever since Poland became an EU member, with nearly half of Israelis having part or whole Polish ancestry, obviously there's a great demand now. Charsky has local contacts in Poland which could help you as well, if needed. As far as US documents, it may be easier and less expensive for you to do that.

I would really like another to chime in again and confirm everything I've told you, as I don't want you to waste any more time or money if it's a pipe dream. My final verdict would be that you have a chance, and if you have the desire, time, patience and money you should try it. Be prepared for lots of waiting. My application was submitted directly in Warsaw (the "fast"er way, as Charsky's group would do for you), and actually I just noticed that it's been a year to the day since it was submitted. No word in sight. Good luck, hope I've been helpful and if there's anything else, don't hesitate to ask.

Edit: They'll charge you somethign like $250 to tell you if you're eligible. I believe that if the say you're eligible and then you're denied, they refund half of the fee, or something along those lines. I had inquired myself and that's what they told me.

[DMOesq]

Alyehoud:

You have been very helpful and I do appreciate it. I will keep you posted and will continue to watch the board. Good luck with your application.

Don

[alyehoud]

Can someone please list the telephone number (full) for the Wojewoda Mazowiecki?

And maybe any experiences calling?

[polskiarg]

As to my statement that they naturalized in Israel in the mid-50s, my assumption as to their acquiring citizenship is based upon my understanding that the Law of Return only granted Jews the right to immigrate and that it is the 1952 Law of Nationality granted citizenship (based upon the law of return)? Thus, on January 17, 1951, they were still Polish citizens. However, my next question is, since the Law of Nationality granted citizenship retroactively to those who immigrated into Israel in 1950 under the Law of Return, would that be considered getting foreign citizenship prior to the January 16, 1951 under the 1920-1951 Polish Citizenship law? Thus, causing a loss of citizenship.

If a foreign citizenship was acquired before 1951 to your grandfather then he lost his polish citizenship and so did his wife and children under 18 years of age: in your case, your mother ( that was the case of my grandfather who got naturalised argentinean in 1950: he lost his polish citizenship and so did my uncle who was under 18 but not my father who was over 18... ( what a stupid and unfair law!).

if I were you I would definitely consult a good lawyer about your situation before proceding.