Yes of course... I answered my own question! (how silly of me)

So if you are permanent resident in the U.S. then you are not entitled to be enrolled in the books of permanent population in the kingdom of Poland unless you return to Poland and cancel the permanent residency in the U.S.

That happened to me... If I wanted to be permanent resident in Italy then I would have to cancel my residency in the U.K. or I will lose it automatically.

 

Believe it or not that is possible!! I never thought it could be but for example a woman married to an Argentinean man is entitled to an Argentine Passport but not entitled to Argentine Citizenship. So for example a Russian woman married to an Argentine man can hold an Argentine passport which will say in Nationality: Russian Citizen and she would need a visa to enter in Argentina! Weird isn't it??

 

I don't see how being in the United States as an alien without citizenship makes one not a permanent resident of the country they came from. If he became naturalized as a United States citizen, then the law would conclude his Polish citizenship would have been forfeited... but he wasn't naturalized. I understand the disputable nature of this statement, but legally, I can't see how they could prove he wasn't a citizen of his own country just because he wasn't physically there.

If records still exist dating back to the Kingdom of Poland, which very well may, whatever I would find would refer to my great-grandparents as having been born in and permanently residing in the Kingdom of Poland. They weren't traveling tourists in the Kingdom of Poland... they were born, raised, and lived there their entire lives up until their travel to the United States. Again, if records exist, they could most certainly be referred to as permanent residents. Getting on a ship and going to another country wouldn't change that.

If they can be considered permanent residents of the Kingdom of Poland, then the law states they can be regarded as 'settled in the Polish State', which should give them the right to Polish citizenship.

The consul was providing his personal interpretation. He believes that because my great-grandfather came to the United States, that he must have done so with the intention of permanently settling in another country. My great-grandfather did end up settling in another country; however, I don't think there's anyone alive that could prove that was his intention in 1918...

 

Of course you can be an alien in a foreign country and not be a permanent resident in your own country. For example I was born in Argentina and grew up in Buenos Aires. Then I moved to London U.K 10 years ago and I am now settled (permanent resident) in the U.K. I never naturalized as a British Citizen because I don't need to and I'm not interested at the moment. As far as Argentina is concern I am no longer permanent resident there and I don't have certain rights. For example I can not vote in Buenos Aires unless I move there and live for at least 5 years and I register in the books of the permanent population.

Many countries will strip of your citizenship if you continue to reside abroad for a long period of time and do not register in your embassy. Example of this : The Netherlands (you lose your citizenship after 10 years). Argentina until 1984 will strip of your citizenship if you resided more than 2 years abroad without a diplomatic reason.

They didn't just take a ship and go to the U.S. for a holiday. They lived there for the rest of their life and never returned to Poland for a minute.

They were no longer permanent residents in the Kingdom of Poland for at least 10 years because they never returned after moving to the U.S.

Probably my intention was not to live in the U.K. but I ended up doing so.

Whether it was their intention or not is irrelevant. It is a fact that they ended up living in the U.S.

 

incurve, I was hoping that you could fight your case basing your claim on section 2) but your explanation of it made me hesitate on that as well. Sorry I can not think of any other ideas, so lets see what the lawyers say.

 

incurve, I've just thought of an idea that might work but you would need to ask a lawyer about it:

1. Your great-grandfather emigrated to the U.S. supposedly holding the citizenship of the Kingdom of Poland.

2. I suppose the Kingdom of Poland ceased to exist in 1918 or so, and therefore the citizenship of the Kingdom of Poland ceased to exist as well.

3. Your great-grandfather at the time of the termination of the Kingdom of Poland was not in Polish territory AND at the same time he was no longer entitled to hold the citizenship of the Kingdom of Poland since obviously that citizenship no longer existed!!

4. Lets suppose he did not naturalize U.S. citizen (NOTE that naturalization is NOT an entitlement at all).

5. If he neither held the citizenship of the Kingdom of Poland (for the reason explained in 3.), nor the citizenship of the U.S. (for the reason 4.) then he would have become stateless ( not holding any citizenship) against his will.

6. I'm pretty sure it must be an international treaty which prevents people from becoming stateless against their will.

7. Therefore he wouldn't be ENTITLED to hold any other citizenship apart from the CITIZENSHIP OF THE POLISH STATE since that would be the ONLY citizenship he could hold if he were to be a resident in The Republic of Poland.

8. If all I said is correct, then you could "probably" base your claim on Article 2 Section 3). and you would need to ask an attorney if that is possible based on international treaties.

Let me know what you think about this...

 

It's very creative, but I think there's some solid logic in that. I know for sure that in today's world, this would work because we know of these treaties, so we'll have to see if Poland was part of any conventions. In my 15 minutes looking, I can't even find a convention prior to the "1954 Convention Relating to the Status of Stateless Persons", of which Poland is NOT a signed member, but it's moot because Poland already made provisions for this 3 years prior in the 1951 revision of the nationality law.

He'd need it to be 1918 (the date of the forbidding Polish nationality law) or before, right?

 

It would be ideal if it was any treaty back in 1918 but that is not absolutely necessary as long as any treaty post 1918 can act with retrospective effect.

I certainly know that the Polish Repatriation Act gave back the Polish Citizenship with retrospective effect to those whom lost it (revoked against their will) during the Communist Regime; and the recovery of the citizenship acts as if it was never lost, which means that it can be transmitted to their children back in those years.

 

Definitely an interesting and good idea. I'll keep note of it.

I spoke with my grandmother, and she's pretty sure her father was naturalized as a U.S. citizen but doesn't have any documentation. I submitted a request with United States Citizenship and Immigration Services for confirmation of my great-grandfathers naturalization, so we'll see what I hear back.

I did receive an email from the I.Charsky Law firm, and while they recognized and agreed with the interpretation of the law we went over in this thread, they also stated that my application would most definitely be denied by Poland, but that they could appeal and may have a chance there. Even if they did appeal and won, there would still be the maternal vs. paternal issue, which they would have to fight as well.

I'm going to continue to gather as much documentation as I can, and will forward it to several attorneys to see what they say. Will keep the forum posted as soon as I have more info.

 

Can they provide a guess or at least a ballpark figure of how much all of this apealling will cost?

 

Any idea how intense the background check is that the Polish government would conduct for a US citizen applying for confirmation of citizenship? Are there any automatic disqualifiers in terms of criminal background?

 

There are automatic disqualifiers if you were applying for Polish Nationality being a foreign citizen, but if you are applying for confirmation of Polish citizenship you presumably are already a Polish citizen and I don't think there are automatic qualifiers based on criminal convictions unless there are crimes against humanity and can be consider a serious threat to the National Security. You still need to declare any criminal records you may have in your application for confirmation of citizenship.

 

Not yet... but will let the forum know once I hear back.

 

Here's an interesting question. Suppose that a couple living in Polish Austria in 1912 get married. The husband leaves for the USA in 1913. The wife stays in Poland until 1920. She receives a Polish passport in 1920, seven years after her marriage and after her husband has moved to the US.

The husband never gains US citizenship.

Can the female, since she received her passport after her marriage, pass along citizenship, even though the husband's citizenship is ambiguous??

 

If the husband never gains US citizenship, then there shouldn't be a major issue in the first place.

To directly answer your question, though, I vaguely remember reading something that the only way back then a woman could pass citizenship was if she was not married and the child had no father basically. So, no, I don't see how.

 

Ahh.. How I want a copy of the 1920 law!!

 

Did you want a copy?, Here it goes!!

http://www.polishcitizenship.pl/index.p ... nformation

 

Thank you very much. I needed to see the language of the provision for how the citizenship of a legitimate child is inherited.

Unfortunalely it doesn't look like I'm going to have an open and shut case when it comes to citizenship, but it will have to be indirectly shown. What do you all think of the following argument:

Great-grandma and Great-grandpa are born in the 1890s in Galicia, Austria - present day Poland. They marry in 1912. They have a child in 1913. In 1913, Great-Grandpa leaves for the USA. In 1920, Great-Grandma gets a Polish passport and handwrites an entry in the "Family Members" section for their daughter who is then 6 years old. That indicates that Great-Grandpa was a Polish citizen too, since his daughter was written in the passport.

Shakey, I think - What do you think?? Has anyone seen one like this go through? The problem is that I have excellent evidence for my Great-grandmother (expired passport, original birth certificate).. but I have nothing for my Great-grandfather (yet), and he left at an "iffy" time for citizenship to be determined.

 

Yes, I've seen a case like this one that went through.
To find out if you are Polish Citizen I need know a bit more:
Your grandmother who was 6 years old in 1920 is definitely a Polish Citizen. Your grandma then had a child who is either your father or your mother, right? In which year was that child born?

 

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. My grandmother is not the person noted in the passport. That is my grandmother's older, now deceased, sister (aka, my great-aunt). My father was born just after the 1951 law passed, so he would qualify... it's just making this little link to prove my great-grandfather's citizenship and therefore my grandmother's citizenship.