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The above thought is perfect and doesn't required and further addition.
Hazel
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Re: Getting my Polish ducks in a row...

Just checking back in....

Just today I received what I was hoping for... a Passaic county clerk certified (embossed gold seal) copy of my great grandfather's petition for naturalization, and it very clearly shows the family name change from Schklankawicz to Shane. My grandfather, spelled Sol, is listed as his child, and the form states that he was born in Lodz, Poland but now resides with his father.

I then have a photocopy of my mother's birth certificate (certified copy is arriving soon) , which lists "Saul Shane" (spelled differently) as her father.

I then of course have my birth certificate, which lists my mother.

So it appears that even without the Ellis Island ship manifests, I have clear US documentation that clearly shows my Polish bloodline.

The question now is whether Warsaw accepts confirmation petitions without any Polish paperwork at all.

I submitted to the Polish Consulate a request for my grandfather's record of birth, and they found nothing. I'm not sure if this is because the records doesn't exist, or if the researcher at the Lodz archive didn't spell the name right. I still don't know the exact Polish way to spell "Schklankawicz". A Polish Lodz friend of mine has a friend who worked at the archives, and he says there are only 18 employees there, and the paperwork has not been computerized. So, nightmare. Eek. Either way, I've lost my $41

At this point, is it even necessary to get certified copies/translations of the Ellis Island ship manifests?

Thanks for all your advice & input

 

Re: Getting my Polish ducks in a row...

Congrats on finding your documents.

You might want to submit without the manifests if your documents prove your bloodline. There is no point "double" proving something.

Ultimately you have to wait and see what they say and what extra documentation you will have to send.

 

schleima, have you, or are you planning on getting any of your documents certified by the polish consulate?

 

I will get my US Immigration Documents translated and certified by the Polish Consulate.

I did manage to track down the birth record of my great grandmother through JPL/JewishGen, and I just wired the funds to the Lodz Archives ($5 to the Lodz Archives for the Xerox/postage, $30 to Citibank to wire the funds!!). However, I am told by the attorney at the Polish consulate that great grandparent birth records are too far back to confirm Polish citizenship.... however, I am hoping that my case will be made when they view this in conjunction with her Petition for Naturalization, which lists my grandfather as her son, born in Poland.

The holy grail really would be if I could track down my grandfather's Polish birth record. It seems I have everything except that.

 

Yeah that seems like everyone's holy grail. If I could find that, I would be set.

This is the first I've heard of any ancestor being too far back, as long as it can be proved. I wonder if this is truly the case. I really hope they heavily consider the petition for naturalization as proof, because those documents I actually have.

 

Actually, I think the real "holy grail" is a copy of the old passport, or of the military records, along with a Polish birth certificate.

Unfortunately, based on what the attorney told me great grandparent records won't work, although that doesn't seem to make a lot of sense.
By that logic, my mom could confirm her citizenship, but I could not. Guess I need to ask them if I need to establish my mom's citizenship first (using her grandparents records), and then establish mine as the child of a Polish citizen.

This is what the attorney at the Polish consulate in LA wrote back to me:

Dear Sir,

You will need to present documents confirming your Polish bloodline only through your parents or grandparents. Links to your great grandparents will unfortunately not work in this case. You could apply for re-establishing of birth record of your parent or yourself if any documents indicate that you or your parents or grandparents were born in Poland.

Best Regards,
Tomasz Orzechowski
Legal Department
Consulate General of the Republic of Poland in Los Angeles

 

Yeah you can avoid the problem by having your mum submit for confirmation first.

In order to prove a case a person needs to prove one parent, grandparent or both great grandfathers are Polish. Your mum would have the same rules but she is a step higher in the genealogy tree, therefore, your having to prove two great grandfathers equals one grandparent for mum.

 

I have a super simple problem that seems to be a huge hurdle for Warsaw and I want to know what you guys think.

I had a letter from Warsaw requesting more documentation. I submitted this documentation and Warsaw seems to be satisfied with them, but they have requested different documents.

Currently they are requesting:
1. Complete Canadian military history of grandfather.
He has no military history but I submitted to the archives for a summary. I included a letter with the request that even if he has no history I need an official letter stating he has no military history. Pretty straight forward and simple.

2. The act of naturalization of mum.
I assume they want some document where my mum naturalized to Canada but there is no such document. This is the problem Warsaw and lawyers just can't seem to understand. I have spoken with Canadian Immigration and Citizenship multiple times, they have repeatedly stated that my mum was born in Canada and her Canadian birth certificate is her citizenship document. Even though her parents were both Polish (not Canadian) at the time of birth she was Canadian by place of birth, she never applied to the government, she never submitted anything, and there is no paperwork. Warsaw believes she must have applied for naturalization because she "became" Canadian. Obviously Warsaw already has a certified copy of my mum's birth certificate, so I am not sure what to send. I have written the Vancouver consulate requesting an explanation but that was over a week ago, so I don't think I will get a response.

Thoughts?

 

You don't HAVE to prove that TWO great-grandparents are Polish. It might be sufficient with only one.

 

My uncle in Argentina 2 weeks ago received a letter from Poland with exactly the same request of my grandfather! This is in order to make sure that your grandfather never joined the army in a foreign state (Canada) since joining the Canadian Army would have meant the lost of his Polish citizenship according to the 1920 Act.

I find surprisingly hard to believe the ignorance of the Polish authorities in respect of acquiring a citizenship automatically by place of birth. I expect that ANY Polish Consulate in Canada should be able to explain and clarify this situation. Your mother became Canadian by birth, not by naturalization. If the Polish authorities don't understand this criterion, then send them a copy of the Canadian Citizenship Act where it states the automatic acquisition of the Canadian citizenship by place of birth.

 

Regarding military service, this is very disturbing... my grandfather immigrated to the US as a boy and was drafted into the US military for WWII when he was about 35 years old. Does this mean I've lost all hope for my citizenship petition?

EDIT: According to the 1920 act, it appears that because he was drafted (and therefore did not join by choice), my petition would not necessary be denied because of this, as long as I show documentation that he was released.

However, article 11 also eliminates Polish citizenship by obtaining another country's citizenship-- even though it was not through his own choice (he was a minor child who naturalized on my great grandpa's paperwork) how then would this affect my petition?

Article 11. Loss of citizenship happens by:
1) obtaining another country´s citizenship;

2) taking a public office or entering the service in a foreign country’s army without proper governor´s (capital city of Warsaw Government Commissioner’s) consent that is given in cases of intention of entering the service in a foreign country’s army in accord with district corps´ proper commander.

Persons who are obligated to active military service can obtain a foreign citizenship in no other way than after obtaining a general military service obligation release, according to rules in force, otherwise, in view of The Polish State, they will be still considered Polish citizens.

 

Obviously your great-grandfather was between 18 and 50 years old when he naturalized American and therefore he was of an age which would have made him eligible for the Polish Army, hence UNLESS he requested to the Polish government permission to obtain American citizenship AND received approval from the Polish Ministry of Defense to obtain foreign citizenship, in view of The Polish State he is still a Polish Citizen.

All of the above will apply only if your great-grandfather and your grandfather emigrated from Poland after the date of the 1920 Act coming into force(i.e. after 31st of January 1920). Otherwise they would have never held Polish Citizenship and your case would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to resolve.

 

This is a hassle but I am not really surprised. Even a few "popular" lawyers were confused by the concept of citizenship based on place of birth. I posted a few months ago about one of them not understanding it. I can also see Warsaw being oblivious to this but the Canadian-Polish consulates this should be a common obvious problem.

 

Actually, he was 12-13 years old when he took the boat over in 1923, and he naturalized at about 17 years old when he was still a minor living with his father. (He is listed as a subordinate on his father's naturalization paperwork-- he has no naturalization papers of his own).

He was born in Poland to two Polish parents, so he definitely was a Polish citizen.

How does this affect my case?

 

If your great-grandfather and your father emigrated from Poland in 1923 then they both were Polish citizens. If your great-grandfather never ask permission to the Polish government to obtain foreign citizenship, then he and his son (your grandfather), in view of the Polish State, are both Polish citizens and so are his children and so are You.

You need to produce all the documents for your confirmation of Polish citizenship.

 

So none of this language about serving in a foreign army or accepting foreign citizenship applies?

Article 11 of the 1920 citizenship act seems pretty explicit in this regard....

 

Art 11 states acquiring foreign citizenship in view of the Polish Law, and in view of the Polish Law for a male aged 18 to 50 years old that can only happen with the permission of the Polish Ministry of Defense, which means that even though for the American Law he might be treated as an American Citizen, for the Polish law he is considered ONLY as a Polish Citizen.

 

If your grandfather was 17 when he naturalized you will likely have to get your great-grandfather naturalization papers. You will likely have to show that your great-grandfather was military age and did not have permission, therefore great-grandfather is still Polish under art 11 and minor grandfather is also Polish.

 

My case.

Hey, thanks for the great information I have found on this forum about becoming a Polish citizen it seems to be a very confusing topic and I'd like to explain my story to see if any of you can help out.

My great-grandfather was born in Poland in 1896 and lived there until 1928 when he left with his wife and son, all Polish citizens. My grandmother was born in 1932, which by the laws I have read make her a Polish Citizen at that time.

In 1935 my great-grandfather was naturalized as a US citizen which would have forfeited his Polish citizenship, however as he was between 18-50 at the time according to the 1920 law on Polish citizenship, as he did not get approval of release from military duty in Poland, his citizenship was not recognized. He also never joined the US military. Therfore, he remained a Polish citizen to his death passing it along to my grandmother, her to my father and my father of course to me.

I also have nearly all of my great grandfather's records from Poland and US, including perhaps most importantly, his Polish passport.

Questions:
1. Will I be able to apply to confirm this directly or will my father or grandmother also have to get involved in the process?

2. Does having all the documentation make it more likely that I will be approved and that this will happen quicker?

3. Exactly what documents will need to be submitted?

4. I emailed the NY Polish Consulate and didn't hear back, what is the best way to get this process started.

5. Will I need a lawyer to get this done? As my documentation is pretty solid I might be able to do it myself?