Forum Immigration UK

by **bendan** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:07 am

I'm British, and my wife is Chinese. She was refused a visa for entry to Denmark, expressly to accompany me on a visit there, due to the lack of a reference in Denmark confirming that they wished to be visited by my wife.

As I am an EU citizen, I don't accept that my wife needs to provide such a reference when she is accompanying me, and EU law seems to back me up on this point. However, the Danish authorities, who incidentally charged my wife for the visa application - again contrary to EU law, insist that my wife must comply with Danish national visa regulations. Does anyone know why they are so sure about this? To me it seems they are obviously wrong, so I'm willing to take legal action against them, but I have this nagging suspicion I've overlooked something. Any ideas?

Edit: I should add that we don't live in the EU/EEA, but we wish to enter Denmark from Britain, not directly from outside the EU.

by **petkanov** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:05 am

They wronged you. THere is a free service from the European Commision that deals with that kind of stuff. here is the web address:
http://europa.eu.int/solvit/site/index_en.htm

Please update us how it goes!

by **bendan** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:26 pm

Thanks Petkanov.

I had heard of SOLVIT before, but mistakenly thought it was only for economic related matters. Looking at it more carefully, one of the "success stories" (of the German in Turkey wanting to go to France with her Turkish husband) seems to mirror my case. I've therefore submitted the form to the Danish SOLVIT centre.

I'll post the result here.

by **Coyan** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:22 pm

bendan wrote:I'm British, and my wife is Chinese. She was refused a visa for entry to Denmark, expressly to accompany me on a visit there, due to the lack of a reference in Denmark confirming that they wished to be visited by my wife.

As I am an EU citizen, I don't accept that my wife needs to provide such a reference when she is accompanying me, and EU law seems to back me up on this point. However, the Danish authorities, who incidentally charged my wife for the visa application - again contrary to EU law, insist that my wife must comply with Danish national visa regulations. Does anyone know why they are so sure about this? To me it seems they are obviously wrong, so I'm willing to take legal action against them, but I have this nagging suspicion I've overlooked something. Any ideas?

Edit: I should add that we don't live in the EU/EEA, but we wish to enter Denmark from Britain, not directly from outside the EU.

The Danish authorities are wrong. They are very prone to violate EU Laws and placing all sorts of obstacles in the way of EU Nationals seeking to acquire Permanent residence and other related requests. I think they have had a few of their decisions being challenged in Court and this have encouraged them to develop such bad behaviour over the years.

by **bendan** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 10:50 pm

In case anyone is interested, if you submit a complaint to a SOLVIT centre, it should be your national centre, not the one in the country in which the problem exists. I've just resubmitted my form to the British centre.

I was talking about my case to someone the other day, and he pointed out that the EU laws I claimed existed would make it really easy for, say, the non-EU spouse of a German to enter Germany, by getting a French Schengen visa. It would also be free. That way, the spouse wouldn't have to comply with German national requirements (or pay for the visa), but could still enter Germany. As I'm British (i.e. non-Schengen), that issue is irrelevant, but I wonder how the authorities stop this. Surely everyone in that position would apply to another Schengen state, rather than the state of the national to whom they were married.

by **Coyan** » Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:35 am

bendan wrote:In case anyone is interested, if you submit a complaint to a SOLVIT centre, it should be your national centre, not the one in the country in which the problem exists. I've just resubmitted my form to the British centre.

I was talking about my case to someone the other day, and he pointed out that the EU laws I claimed existed would make it really easy for, say, the non-EU spouse of a German to enter Germany, by getting a French Schengen visa. It would also be free. That way, the spouse wouldn't have to comply with German national requirements (or pay for the visa), but could still enter Germany. As I'm British (i.e. non-Schengen), that issue is irrelevant, but I wonder how the authorities stop this. Surely everyone in that position would apply to another Schengen state, rather than the state of the national to whom they were married.

Its very common-place. Not even amongst EU citizens but non-EU citizens wanting to visit a country in Schengen can make the application to any Schengen country and the visa allows travel to any other Schengen zone. Note that Immigration authorities at the first Port of call are likely to query you if the Visa was not issued by their Home Embassy, but hardly will they prevent entry.

The other issue is that yes, it works for visitors but if you want to take up Residence in another EU country, you will have to make the application direct to that country's authorities and on the basis of a Permanent Residence a Schengen Visa cannot help you.

by **bobbie bopproy** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:35 am

hi there.!!
well i'm a nepalise citizen & my wife is E.U citizen(slovakian),& we live in nepal right now. so the thing is that we want to visit to my brother in belgium(together with my wife)...all i want to know that ..do i need to aply a schangan visa or is there other visa cetegry..like EEC FEMILY PERMIT,or other.
pls tell me what are the requirmants for the schangan visa for a NON E.U SPOUSE OF An E.U CITIZEN.
thanx in adv

by **bendan** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:17 pm

The EEA family permit is for visits to the UK. For the Schengen area, you just use the normal form. If you only plan to visit for a period of less than three months, a visa should be automatically granted to you *if* you are accompanying your spouse and they have no evidence it's a sham marriage. You'll probably find that in reality, they ask for proof of funds and a few other things. If the Belgians are like the Danes, they'll ask for a reference in Belgium, proof of your employment in Nepal, proof of leave from your job, proof of your wife's employment, evidence she'll return to Nepal etc etc (the Danes asked *me* to show I would return to *China* :shock:

). Hopefully, the Belgians will not be the same.

I'd emphasise at all times that you are simply accompanying your wife. Don't make it sound like your wife is accompanying you, if you see what I mean.

by **Triple H** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:17 pm

bendan wrote:You'll probably find that in reality, they ask for proof of funds and a few other things. If the Belgians are like the Danes, they'll ask for a reference in Belgium, proof of your employment in Nepal, proof of leave from your job, proof of your wife's employment, evidence she'll return to Nepal etc etc (the Danes asked *me* to show I would return to *China* ). Hopefully, the Belgians will not be the same.

Iam not any wiser listening to all your problems!!!Seems that the laws do not accompany the deeds at the present time!

by **bendan** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 10:09 pm

Yes, the EU website states clearly that the spouse is automatically entitled to a visa when accompanying the EU citizen, but very few countries actually practice this. From the research I've done, Britain and France are two which usually do. I've heard Spain is OK, but a little slow. I think it may be that they don't understand the crucial importance of the fact that the applicant is *accompanying* the spouse. If the spouse is travelling independently, and the EEA citizen is not already in the destination country, the spouse has no special rights.

It would be better if the Schengen countries had something like the EEA Family Permit issued by the UK, to distinguish these two cases more clearly.

The incredible thing in my wife's case is that she has previously held a Schengen visa, issued to her independently for a business trip, and fully complied with its conditions. Why would she, after subsequently marrying an EU citizen and holding a UK visa, and accompanying the EU citizen on a visit, suddenly want to remain illegally (i.e. by herself) in Denmark, when she had manifestly shown she had no desire to do so?

by **Triple H** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:51 am

bendan wrote:The incredible thing in my wife's case is that she has previously held a Schengen visa, issued to her independently for a business trip, and fully complied with its conditions. Why would she, after subsequently marrying an EU citizen and holding a UK visa, and accompanying the EU citizen on a visit, suddenly want to remain illegally (i.e. by herself) in Denmark, when she had manifestly shown she had no desire to do so?

by **bobbie bopproy** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:24 am

HI FRIENDs!!
well...i'm agree with "bendan"
"It would be better if the Schengen countries had something like the EEA Family Permit issued by the UK, to distinguish these two cases more clearly".
enyway ....i would like to ask here that...if sameone be turn down.than is there same one or samething ,where you can rise your voise against it.
thanx in adv
(sorry friend,my english is on that good....so!!!) [/img]

by **bendan** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:02 am

Triple H,

I don't think you'll have trouble with the Spanish, as they are used to these cases due to the big tourism industry. The smaller countries, especially those without a big tourism industry, seem to have a very variable knowledge of the law. The Danish Embassy in Beijing know *nothing* about EU law, and either don't have, or refuse to refer to, any materials that may help. They laughed at the suggestion that my wife's application should be free of charge.

I don't think the Common Consular Instructions of the Schengen countries actually mention any special rights for spouses.

Make sure you apply in plenty time though. The Danes took *four months* to decide to refuse my wife's application, and ignored every attempt I made to communicate with them about it.

by **Triple H** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:19 am

bendan wrote:*four months* to decide to refuse my wife's application, .

Thats F****** ridiculous.

by **Coyan** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 6:06 pm

bendan wrote:Triple H,

I don't think you'll have trouble with the Spanish, as they are used to these cases due to the big tourism industry. The smaller countries, especially those without a big tourism industry, seem to have a very variable knowledge of the law. The Danish Embassy in Beijing know *nothing* about EU law, and either don't have, or refuse to refer to, any materials that may help. They laughed at the suggestion that my wife's application should be free of charge.

I don't think the Common Consular Instructions of the Schengen countries actually mention any special rights for spouses.

Make sure you apply in plenty time though. The Danes took *four months* to decide to refuse my wife's application, and ignored every attempt I made to communicate with them about it.

Bendan,

Just curious to know. Is your wife under the age of 24. If so then the Danish authorities have a point here if they choose to reject her application. This is the only reason why I would probably understand their actions

Under EU Law, States have a Right to decide the status of Marriages or relationship according to State Law. EU has no legislation in this area. Portugal or Ireland will not recognise a gay relationship/marriage for the purpose of EU Freedom of Movement if even another EU country has already recognised this relationship.

Three years ago the Right-Wing Danish Conservative government upped the age by which immigrant partners can be brought into the country from 21 to 24yrs and this applies across board.

This is the only reason why the Danish authorities would reject an application from your wife. Apart from this and others such as public security and public interest they could be acting illegally.

by **bendan** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:35 pm

No, my wife is in her thirties. She owns properties and a car in China, and earns many times the average salary here. We've been married almost two years, and we've known each other for six years (which we can prove if they ask).

I think the law about partners being 24 or older only applies to the spouses of Danes or the spouses of non-EEA immigrants to Denmark, as it would be illegal under EU law to apply it to the spouse of an EEA (but not Danish) citizen.

The only reason given for the refusal was that it is a condition of issuing a visa that a reference confirms that they wish to be visited by the applicant. They referred in particular to Danish Law.

by **bendan** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:46 pm

Just thought I'd report that I've heard nothing from SOLVIT yet apart from an initial couple of emails to clarify one or two points.

by **peg.peg** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:58 pm

this is really amazing !!!!

it is true that FRance is better in that cases ... not for everything still !

Like : i am french and my husband to get a schengen visa in the french consulate just show our both passports, mariage certificate and a completed form ... in 2 hours it is done ! (it was much more complicated before we got married)

But I think that actually they don't ask you for any proof of travelling when you are spouse of EU country ... it is the case for my husband, so even if you want to travel to Italy you can do it via the french consulate ....thta is the way we are doing !

I have checked on the website of the french consulate and they are asking the same documents (like for me) if your spouse is from EU.

really sorry for you, hope it 'll get solved

by **Coyan** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:07 pm

peg.peg wrote:this is really amazing !!!!

it is true that FRance is better in that cases ... not for everything still !

Like : i am french and my husband to get a schengen visa in the french consulate just show our both passports, mariage certificate and a completed form ... in 2 hours it is done ! (it was much more complicated before we got married)

But I think that actually they don't ask you for any proof of travelling when you are spouse of EU country ... it is the case for my husband, so even if you want to travel to Italy you can do it via the french consulate ....thta is the way we are doing !

I have checked on the website of the french consulate and they are asking the same documents (like for me) if your spouse is from EU.

really sorry for you, hope it 'll get solved

This how the law is supposed to operate. If your non-EU spouse accompanies you to the Embassy all you need to do is to request for the Schengen Visa and complete the relevant forms with proof of evidence of the marriage relationship and it should be given.

The right-wing Danish Authorities are notorious for flouting EU Immigration and Freedom of Movement Laws. Its about time someone takes them to the Brussels Court.

by **Triple H** » Thu Dec 08, 2005 1:11 pm

This how the law is supposed to operate. If your non-EU spouse accompanies you to the Embassy all you need to do is to request for the Schengen Visa and complete the relevant forms with proof of evidence of the marriage relationship and it should be given.

The right-wing Danish Authorities are notorious for flouting EU Immigration and Freedom of Movement Laws. Its about time someone takes them to the Brussels Court.

Good to see you back Coyan :lol: