You can use the QUOTE button visible at the top right corner of every post.

 

I agree. As we've implied before, the people that decide our cases are not able to interpret the law, they can only enforce it. If an article says flatly that if someone became a foreign citizen before 1951, then they will deny it, giving you the change to then appeal it, with an attorney, to someone that can in fact interpret the law. In the US, that's what judges do. Police, for example, just enforce it.

 

Is it possible the Polish authorities position on this has changed recently?
When I take a look at the current official website of The Embassy of the Republic of Poland in Ottawa:
http://www.ottawa.polemb.net/index.php?document=61
On their Polish Citizenship information page for Canadians they go out of their way to clarify the official position this way:

The provision 11 of the Act dated 1920 stated that:
"Loss of citizenship takes place:
1.When a person obtains foreign citizenship,
2. When a person accepts public office or joins the army in a foreign country without prior approval of the Polish Government.
Persons compelled to active military service may acquire foreign nationality after obtaining permission from the Minister of Military Affairs, otherwise they are deemed to be Polish citizens."
The above mentioned provision means that a man compelled to active military service could lose his Polish citizenship only if he got the permission to obtain the foreign citizenship issued by Minister of Military Affairs. In case of women the situation was different - they lost their Polish citizenship automatically, because they were not compelled to military service.
The provisions of the said Act apply to all circumstances essential for a person in the matter of his/her citizenship which took place in the period between 1920 and 19.02.1951 when a new Act came into force.


That information page is written and supplied by The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Poland. Perhaps their position was to interpret the law differently in the past. [/url]

 

So was your grandfather an active member of the Poish army when he got naturalized as a Canadian? This sounds like a difficult thing to do. He would have has to have been an active member (note: Not in the reserve) of the Polish army at the same time that he resided in Canada.

 

According to this post it does not seem necessary to be an active member of the Polish army but to be of an age which makes him eligible for the Polish army if they need him. In fact that would be my uncle's defense as my grandfather naturalized Argentine in 1950 when my grandfather was 45 years old and my uncle was 13 years old.

 

Interesting twist. This would open the door for many people.

 

That's correct. Lots of people were wrongly denied the confirmation of citizenship because of this misunderstanding of the 1920 Act, and later were accepted and approved having admitted their mistake.

 

That seems like a huge thing that we haven't even touched on, except for DMOesq's post that I didn't ever see until now.

Has anyone actually gotten through with this defense, or is it obviously necessary to use an attorney to do so? They don't mention this on criteria for Confirmation of Citizenship. Seems a bit out of left field.

 

Hi again, this is from:
http://www.polishcitizenship.pl/index.php?id_section=5&id_sub_section=8

It is specific to Americans, but one could assume it would apply to those in other countries as well, as it does to Canadians.


CIRCULAR No 18
of the
MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR
dated July 9, 1925

Citizenship of persons who were born and naturalized in America


In view of doubts how, in citizenship respect, should persons who were born in The United States of North America be treated and who have a title to Polish citizenship The Minister of the Interior explains in this respect conflicts are inevitable because legislation that regulates the citizenship in both countries, that means in Poland and United States, is based on different theoretical rules. Because the first legislation descents from the rule ius sanguinis, that means a person who was born by a polish citizen is a polish citizen, the second however from the rule ius soli that means everybody who was born on The United States territory is an American citizen without distinction of his father´s citizenship. Pondering the above mentioned issue it should be taken into consideration in cases of:

a) persons who were born BEFORE the act dated 20th of January 1920 (Dz. R.P. Nr 7 poz. 44) on Polish State’s citizenship came into force, that means before 31st of January 1920 and

b) persons who were born AFTER the mentioned act came into force.


With regards to point a): According to article 2 of the above mentioned act, at the moment of declaration of the act a Polish citizen is every person who is settled on The Polish State’s territory without distinction of sex, age, nationality and religion as to the act´s mind, as far as it does not serve another country’s citizenship to the person. In accordance with rules that result from the act, from acts on settlement and from civil acts settled person´s under age children also became Polish citizens.

Thus if a person who is settled on The Polish State’s territory, in above mentioned act´s meaning, on 31st of January 1920 obtained American citizenship on grounds of birth in The United States, did not become Polish citizen.

It is beyond any doubt that children of a person who is settled on The Polish State’s territory born in The United States and who were over 21 years old on 31st of January 1920 are not Polish citizens.

However it can be questionable if the mentioned children were not 21 years old yet. Basing on a general rule that results from the Polish legislation it could be maintained that children who obtained Polish citizenship simultaneously with their father (illegitimate with their mother) are Polish citizens although they became American citizens by birth. On the other hand justified is an opinion in the act´s sentence: "as far as it does not serves another country’s citizenship to the person" concerns not only the age of persons but also minors especially in connection with the first sentence of article 2:
"At the moment of declaration... the right to citizenship serves every person, without distinction of sex, age, religion and nationality" and that then the issue of obtaining Polish citizenship by children is judged with regards to it regardless of the parent´s citizenship.

Minister of the Interior settled with the Minister of Foreign Affairs the second opinion should be founded as proper and authoritative when affirming the citizenship.


With regards to point b): According to article 4 point 1 of the act dated 20th of January 1920 the Polish citizenship is obtained by birth. Then everybody who was born of a person who has become a Polish citizen alternately of a person who obtained Polish citizenship on one of grounds that are designed in mentioned act is a Polish citizen regardless of the fact that he was born in The Polish State or abroad.

Thus the persons who were born of a Polish citizen in America after the act dated 20th of January 1920 came into force are, without exception, Polish citizens and they should be considered as such although they became simultaneously American citizens.

Then a conflict against this category of people exists and it could be canceled only by a bilateral agreement with The United States that does not exist so far.
As far as it is about other titles of obtaining polish citizenship so about article 3 and 4 subsection 2, 3, 4 and 5 of the act dated 20th of January 1920 the conflict exists for persons who were born in America, although the issue has more theoretical than practical meaning because the interested persons will not, as a rule, lay claims on having the American citizenship grounds because obtaining Polish citizenship happened, with few exceptions, according to their will.

Persons who are born in America are Polish citizens if they became Polish citizens in the way pointed out in article 3 or obtained Polish citizenship in one of ways mentioned in subsections 2-5 of article 4 of the act dated 20th of January 1920 although the American citizenship serves them by birth.
Under age children of people who obtained Polish citizenship on above mentioned grounds are also Polish citizens even if they are American citizens by birth regardless of if they were born before or after the act dated 20th of January 1920 came into force alternately before or after obtaining Polish citizenship on above mentioned titles grounds.

Above mentioned rules should be used similarly to Polish citizens who were naturalized in USA. Namely if the naturalization took place before the act on Polish State’s citizenship came into force a person is an American citizen without reservation.

If the naturalization happened after the mentioned act came into force persons who are obligated to active military service lost their Polish citizenship only in case of receiving Minister’s of National Defense permission to obtain foreign citizenship according to the last section of article 11 of the act.
************************************************
I've tried to apply the formatting which appears on the original web page.

Reading this, and with the current clarification to reinforce it from the Polish Embassy in Ottawa, it seems to me that if a Polish man was of the age to be in the Polish armed forces, regardless of whether he was actually in the armed forces, and he moved away from Poland and became naturalized after 1920 in America (or Canada, or probably most anywhere else), then he NEVER lost his Polish citizenship UNLESS he
"got the permission to obtain the foreign citizenship issued by Minister of Military Affairs."

I think their law was to avoid, what was called in the USA during the 1960s anyway, "draft doggers". Men who wanted to avoid mandatory conscription by leaving the country.

I highly doubt that very many Polish men who left Poland ever obtained written permission from the Polish Minister of Military Affairs to become citizens of other countries. And if Polish men applied to the Minister, then I doubt the Minister granted permission. Especially with what was happening with the Nazi's in Europe all the way up until the end of the 2nd World War, and even after when Poland became communist.

That would mean that all those men who left Poland and became citizens of other countries never lost their Polish citizenship. And as had been said before in the forum, and as I've read in many places elsewhere on the internet - Poland just doesn't recognize the foreign citizenship - they consider that the person is a citizen of Poland, period.

And, if a Polish man in fact did obtain written permission from the Polish Minister of Military Affairs, then the original document will be in possession of the Polish government in thier files in Poland. If no permission was requested or granted, then no document exists anywhere. Nobody can produce a document as evidence if no document existed in the first place. The Polish government would have to find and offer the original document if they are going to suggest a man lost his Polish citizenship by becomming naturalized in another country.


For these men, the year they received naturalization in another country is irrelivant (as long as it was after 1920).

Also, as someone kindly pointed out earlier in the forum, the Hague Convention of 1930 changed the 1920 Polish law as to the citizenship of women and children.

Also keep in mind that the 1920 law has a broad definition for "settled on the Polish State's territory".

 

I agree with you. For further clarification I will also analyze the wording of the 1962 Act:

Probably most of us know beyond any doubt that under the 1962 act it is not possible to lose the Polish citizenship UNLESS you are willing to renounce it AND ALSO received the President's approval to change citizenship. (Section 3 Article 13).

"SECTION 3 - LOSS OF CITIZENSHIP Article 13 Subject to exceptions provided by this Law a Polish citizen may acquire foreign citizenship only with the consent of the appropriate Polish authority permitting such change of citizenship. The acquisition of foreign citizenship automatically results in the loss of Polish citizenship"

If you only read the part that I put in big red letters, you would wrongly conclude that by naturalizing in a foreign country you would automatically lose your Polish citizenship.

The matter we need to analyze is "what really means FOR THE POLISH GOVERNMENT to ACQUIRE a foreign citizenship.

The conclusion is as follows:

By only naturalizing in a foreign country you did NOT acquire a foreign citizenship "FOR THE POLISH GOVERNMENT" even if you declare to the foreign country that you renounce your Polish citizenship and further more, even if you said to the Polish Government that you no longer want to be Polish. The only way to "ACQUIRE" a foreign citizenship is to meet the requirements of the Polish government to change citizenship. Poland doesn't care if the foreign country considers you as one of its citizens. In view of the Polish Law your foreign citizenship is TOTALLY IGNORED.

That is exactly the same situation for male Polish citizens of an age of 18 to 50 years old in view of the 1920 Act. Naturalizing in a foreign country is not enough to lose Polish citizenship.

 

you guys are treading on shaky ground here....

You are re-interpreting a law has already been interpreted once for the purpose of translation.

I recommend you interpret the law in it's native language, as the translator may have selected a word or words which do represent the original meaning of the law, but the English words the you are interpreting may have alternate meanings, which were not intended by the law in its native language, Polish.

 

The interpretation of the law I quoted above from
http://www.ottawa.polemb.net/index.php?document=61
was prepared and supplied by The Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Poland who themselves interpreted the law from it's original Polish and explained in English the meaning . There was no third party interpreter involved. They provide it for the public in a mostly English speaking country on an offical Polish Government website to explain what the law means, on a webpage specifically intened to answer questions about citizenship . It is current, and confirms what is written in
CIRCULAR No 18 of the MINISTER OF THE INTERIOR dated July 9, 1925 which appears at
http://www.polishcitizenship.pl/index.php?id_section=5&id_sub_section=8

Reading from these two sources, it appears that Circular No 18 was translated correctly and that in fact the meaning has not changed in over 80 years.

If there are sources which contradict what the current Ministry of Foreign Affairs says the meaning of the law is, then we should look at that. If I find anything I'll definitly post it in the forum, and others can do the same.

 

I get it. I don't doubt the translation is incorrect. The point is that we are extrapolating from the translation, rather than the original. I have doubts about building a case from the translation, and looking for hidden meanings in the English version.

The same thing occurs when people build a case based on the English translation of the bible. Its not necessarily an incorrect translation, but the translation itself adds additional layers of meaning, if the reader does not consider the words in the original Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek texts.

 

We are not talking about a poetic translation of a text or trying to find a hidden meaning in the wording. I also read the Spanish translation published on the official website of the Polish Embassy in Buenos Aires and both the English and Spanish are consistent with this interpretation. You have also the buck up of the Charsky's office which I believe they are basing their interpretation on the Polish version of the Acts and they are qualified and specialized in the matter unlike most of us. The Law is quite clear and I doubt that in the Polish language the words "...could lose his Polish citizenship only if he got the permission to obtain the foreign citizenship issued by Minister of Military Affairs..." may have any hidden meaning.

 

You don't doubt the translation is incorrect? Why are you so certain that it is incorrect? I appreciate your caution and I think it would be very benificial if we could view what you think the correct translation is, or if you could provide a link to what you think is the correct translation, or to a website which provides a different interpretation from the one provided on the government of Poland website in Ottawa.

I'm not extrapolating from anything, the Polish government website says
"The above mentioned provision means that a man compelled to active military service could lose his Polish citizenship only if he got the permission to obtain the foreign citizenship issued by Minister of Military Affairs." That's their words, and it's not translated from anything, it's written in the present day in plain english for an english speaking public. I'm interested to know why you think it doesn't mean what it says.

 

Here is the Polish version of art 11 of 1920 Act. http://www.polishcitizenship.pl/index_pol.php

Art.11. Utrata obywatelstwa polskiego następuje przez:

1) nabycie obywatelstwa obcego państwa;

2) przyjęcie urzędu publicznego lub wstąpienie do służby wojskowej w państwie obcym bez zgody właściwego wojewody (Komisarza Rządu m.st. Warszawy) wyrażonej w przypadkach zamiaru wstąpienia do służby wojskowej w państwie obcym, w porozumieniu z właściwym dowódcą okręgu korpusu.

Osoby zobowiązane do czynnej służby wojskowej nabyć mogą obywatelstwo obce nie inaczej, jak po uzyskaniu zwolnienia od powszechnego obowiązku wojskowego, zgodnie z obowiązującymi przepisami, w przeciwnym razie wobec Państwa Polskiego nie przestaną być uważane za obywateli polskich.

In English: http://www.polishcitizenship.pl/index.php

Article 11. Loss of citizenship happens by:

1) obtaining another country´s citizenship;

2) taking a public office or entering the service in a foreign country’s army without proper governor´s (capital city of Warsaw Government Commissioner’s) consent that is given in cases of intention of entering the service in a foreign country’s army in accord with district corps´ proper commander.

Persons who are obligated to active military service can obtain a foreign citizenship in no other way than after obtaining a general military service obligation release, according to rules in force, otherwise, in view of The Polish State, they will be still considered Polish citizens.

 

Loss of Polish Citizenship

Hello, there are American soldiers with Polish citizenship from their parents and none of them have permission from Warsaw. Polish citizens ONLY lose their citizenship if they:

1. took another country's citizenship before January 1951. OR

2. served in another country's military before January 1951.

You can call the Polish consulate in New York and they will tell you the
above.

 

Re: Loss of Polish Citizenship

I read all the previous posts in this forum and I found that different Polish consulates in different cities around the world give different and seemingly contradictory information depending on exactly what they are asked, based precisely on the information that the caller gives them. If the caller doesn't mention that they are asking about the citizenship of someone who left Poland in the 1920s who never received permission from the Ministry of Military Affairs to become a citizen of a foreign country, then the answer they recieve from the consulate will be based on the 1962 law.

The Consulate General of The Republic of Poland in New York's website has a special web page to give information and answer questions about citizenship http://www.polishconsulateny.org/index.php?p=43
What it says there is this:

INFORMATION FOR APPLICANTS WHO EMIGRATED FROM POLAND BEFORE 1962 AND THEIR DESCENDANTS:
Under Polish law there were in force, in the corresponding periods, the Statute on Citizenship of the Polish State of January 20, 1920 (in force between 1920 and 1951) and the Statute on Polish Citizenship of January 8, 1951 (in force between 1951 and 1962). The provisions of Polish law that were in force at the time of the occurrence of events significant to a case at hand are applicable for the resolution of questions of Polish citizenship (significant events taken into account are usually the date of departure from Poland and/or the date of acquisition of foreign citizenship)

* Provisions applicable from 1918 until 1951:
The provision 11 of the Act dated 1920 stated that a Polish citizen looses his/her Polish nationality:
- When a person obtains foreign citizenship, or
- When a person accepts public office or joins the army in a foreign country without prior approval of the Polish Government. Persons compelled to active military service may acquire foreign nationality after obtaining permission from the Minister of Military Affairs, otherwise they are deemed to be Polish citizens.

 

Hey all,

Just found my fathers birth certificate - its the original from poland. Do I just get him to ask for a passport (he never renounced citizenship) and then how would I go about getting citizenship

 

Re: Loss of Polish Citizenship

Here is the information of the Polish Embassy in Buenos Aires which says the same and also mentions the age of eligibility up to 50 years old.

http://www.buenosaires.polemb.net/index.php?document=96

"Las personas obligadas a cumplir el servicio militar (hasta 50 años de edad) podían obtener la ciudadanía de otro estado sólo mediante previa autorización del Ministro de Asuntos Militares. Si no habían realizado este trámite, el Estado Polaco los seguía considerando ciudadanos polacos."