Correct; It is not my mother's father's father. It's my mother's mother's father... and my mother was was born in 1950, 1 year before the law revision.

So just a recap, the odds are against me because:

- My Polish ancestry is being traced through my grandmother's parents all before 1951, which is considered illegitimate unless you have a stroke of luck or a superb attorney.

- The Polish citizenship of my great-grandparents who left Warsaw in 1910, is technically viable depending on one's interpretation of Art. 2 of the 1920 Act; however, once again, it would take a superb attorney to pull it off.

- Last but not least, finding documents to prove citizenship for all of this would be impossible for my great-grandparents as they left Poland before it was the Republic of Poland, and finding documents for my great-great-grandparents would be incredibly difficult.

There are several ways to approach this, but you start to add already complex situations on top of other complex situations if you take it further down the line (to my mother, or me). So in theory, my grandmother, who is still alive, could apply through her father (who left Warsaw in 1910 (again the questionable aspect because it wasn't Poland yet), but would need an excellent lawyer. Then assuming she could even get past that hurdle, my mother (who was born in 1950) would have a legal battle to prove that she's Polish because, even if her mother was found to be Polish, my mother was born before 1951?

So it's do that, or tackle both complexities at the same time with a great lawyer with my mother as the applicant...

 

That's right, technically the only person in your family line who could confirm Polish Citizenship would be your grandmother if you can pass the obstacle of the interpretation of 1920 act. For your mother would be far more difficult to argue her case since she was born before 1951 and so far I don't know anyone who has ever done it before.

 

What are the exceptions you have heard of for this?

 

The only exception I know is that your mother was an illegitimate child and her father was unknown or stateless. In this case your mother would inherit the citizenship from her mother.

 

I don't know of the exceptions. An attorney I spoke with said that there were some, but I didn't further inquire because it didn't apply to me.

Other than expired passports, I don't know what else can be used as proof of citizenship. Old passports are not filed in records in Poland, or any country to my knowledge. With that said, there may be a document that does prove citizenship (remember, birth certificates do not). Attorneys that do Polish citizenship cases many times will assist (for a further charge) in locating old documents that could be useful in your case. There are lots of attorneys that can do it, and maybe you should get together with Zebulunite and see what you can come up with. I know (s)he has done a good amount of research on the matter, and your situations are similar anyway. You may even be able to negotiate a better rate, or just as good, a reduced "eligibility check".

Let us know what happens.

 

I have read conflicting evidence about the paternal/maternal lines. I have only read that a woman loses her citizenship throw marriage in the 1920 act. However I have read newer documents that speak to the discrimination practises again women, which are ended and retroactive, due to the EU I think. The document did not speak of Polish citizenship in specific but more to the effect of womens rights. However take this with a grain of salt because I don't have the document were I saw this.

Also much of the consulates say "when a person" when describing the 1920s act. They tend not to make the distinction between men and women.

Convention on the Nationality of Married Women (1958)
http://www.legislationline.org/legislat ... 1&lid=4318
Not sure if it is retroactive?

If you get a firm answer on the maternal rights prior to 1951 please share.

 

I don't know which countries signed this convention and whether or not is included Poland.... But I certainly know that for the Italian Citizenship the woman was able to transmit her citizenship only after 1948 and some court cases ruled against it as inadmissible discrimination of woman's rights. Despite of those rulings in isolated court cases they still continue to apply the same legislation.

I haven't yet seen a similar ruling for the transmission of Polish citizenship by maternal line prior to 1951 and I hope someone will make a case to change this inadmissibly unfair law.

If incurve could succeed with his/her case, it would be a very important precedent.

I have some ideas on how to argue this situation based on a court case in the Italian law, but it would be very technical, long and complicated to explain in one post and English is not my native language.

 

Actually the law mention nothing about grand parents and great grandparents, this is just an extrapolation of the law as explained by a consulate.

What it DOES say is that you need to prove that you have Polish citizenship, if you parents have Polish citizenship.

Each generation of your ancestors needs to apply the law accordingly, until you reach the root ancestor who is a Polish citizen. Therefor, you would multiply the application for each generation.

REPEAT LOOP UNTIL ANCESTOR = POLISH CITIZEN.

Each step of the way through your lineage, the law is reapplied, and reasseses that person's Polsish citizenship. So if your great grand father for some reason does not qualify, because he was on officer in a foreign army, then the search ends there.

 

curiousgeorge: Thank you for giving this clear explanation which I was intending to do, but I seemed to have failed, in incurve's argument.

 

No, polskiarg, you've done a great job! It's just confusing verbiage to swallow. I just wanted to make sure I understood exactly what the law was.

I emailed the consul in New York and explained my situation just as I have done on these forums, and received a response stating that because my great-grandparents left Poland before the State of Poland existed, that they came to America as subjects of the Czar; and because they never returned, were never citizens of the State of Poland. In my original email, I also explained that my Polish ancestry comes through my grandmother, but he didn't mention anything with regard to the maternal vs. paternal Polish legitimacy situation... possibly he didn't even care to dig that deep as he deemed my situation helpless from the start.

I responded with the information Zebulunite came upon before me, citing the reference from Art. 2, Section 1-D, of the 1920 Act, where it specifically states a person settled in the territory of the Polish State, who was enrolled to urban or rural commune to one of the state organizations on lands of the former Empire of Russia which are now parts of the Polish State; are eligible for Polish citizenship. And that my great-grandparents were born and raised in Warsaw, and the law does not state they had to be present at the time of the 1920 act, but that they needed to have been born or settled in the territory which formed Poland in 1920 - which they most certainly were.

I'm sure it won't make much of a difference, but we'll see what I hear back...

 

I'm glad I can be of any help. I know there are so many technicalities and the terminology is difficult to digest and it takes a while to understand exactly how it works.

The consulates never want to dig into every possibility and they limit their work to the standard cases as this is how they are instructed by Poland.

The consulates don't accept this interpretation and they refuse to consider those cases. That's why a lawyer is necessary at this stage.

Let us know what they say when they respond.

 

I'll be interested to hear as well what the consulate said. I haven't yet tried contacting the one in Chicago, since I'd prefer to wait on that until seeing what the various lawyers I contacted say. One seems to specifically want me to talk with him over the phone, and the others haven't replied anything beyond what I've already posted here.

 

I haven't heard back from the consul yet, but will be sure to post what information I do receive. I did receive a response from Mr. Staczek. He charges 1220 PLN to simply consider the case.

 

I can only imagine what he charges IN ADDITION to actually work on your case.

 

Duane recently said that he used Mr. Stączek, so maybe he can shed some light on the costs associated with using Mr. Stączek's services.

Duane, what was your eligibility check price? And after that, what did he charge?

I can't find the email which he quoted me for the eligibility check, but I'm pretty sure that Charsky told me that they would CREDIT me (like 50% or so) if I was eligible and continued to use them in the next step(s).

 

I received a response from the consul in New York, and he stated that Art. 2, Point 1 from the 1920 Act states "citizenship can be admitted to people who are settled on the territory on the Polish State." He then went on to say that "the next sentence explains the criteria of being recognized as settled, I.E. permanently residing, as different from temporary residents who could not be admitted to citizenship. A person who emigrated, left with the intention of permanently settling in other country and eventually did it, can not be recognized as at the same time having domicile in Poland. This intention the immigrants expressed also in the INS Certificate of Arrival, declaring that they were 'lawfully admitted to the U.S.A. for permanent residence'."

He also mentioned that "Warsaw belonged to the Polish Kingdom, so it seems that point 1a would be relevant rather than point 1d."

I also received a very kind email from Mr. Piotrowski. Just as the consul stated, he also noted that my great-grandparents were not citizens of Poland when it became an independent country because they did not live in Polish territory at the time. He went on to say that the provisions of this Polish Law were applicable only to those persons that lived on Polish territory in 1920, and not being citizens of other countries. He said that Art. 2 also mentions that a Polish citizen can also be a person that was born in Polish territory; but again, the legal interpretation of the provisions of this act are only applicable to those persons that lived on Polish territory in 1920. He did say though that this is very controversial, and a disputable interpretation of the law.

He thinks that if this were to be done, we'd have to prove my great-great grandparents, who never left Poland, and became citizens in 1918 were Polish citizens, then prove that my great-grandparents were their children and Polish citizens (which would be very difficult), and so on down the line.

I responded to his message with a few more questions, and hope to hear back shortly.

 

So, in plain English, I guess he's saying no, they weren't citizens because they left the area that would become Poland with no intent of returning. I'm not sure what document it would be, but if you could find something that said that they came to the US as temporary or some other type of resident (alien), then this could be used as proof that they did NOT come with that intent, and you could argue that their intent was never to stay...

I'd also like to point out that the NY consulate seems much better than the others, as I personally called and emailed Washington, San Francisco and Chicago, none of them replied or answered phone calls. I didn't try NY, but it seems like they actually work, thankfully.

Sorry the news wasn't to your liking, but that could possibly be his interpretation of the law, rather than an "official" one. I don't know.

 

Yes.

Well, as I'm sure many of us have become accustomed to, I wasn't exactly expecting good news with regard to my difficult situation. He was very polite and promptly responded to my detailed questions, and did stress that he is not a final authority on the subject, nor a decision maker. I received the bad news I was expecting, and understand a thorough and persistent lawyer is required if one wishes for a controversial change of interpretation from the right person. On the other hand, he did mention applying to the President of Poland directly to be granted citizenship - sounds like fun...

I'm not sure how I feel about the statement concerning my great-grandparents' intent on returning to Poland, nor do I know the legal ramifications of disproving this. One doesn't become a citizen of the United States simply by coming through Ellis Island, so there may be some wiggle room there.

We'll see what I hear back from the other attorneys, and I'll keep the forum posted.

 

Yeah, that's what he quoted me, and then said that if I was found eligible there would be an additional fee for him to represent me in legal proceedings. If there was some sort of guarantee I wouldn't be charged much for the eligibility check in the even it is negative I wouldn't mind too much, but the prospect of paying about $550 just to hear an opinion on whether it is possible isn't encouraging.

 

Hey everyone.

yeah Alyehound....I had to pay an eligibility fee to begin with prior to my case being taken on.

When I get home after work, I will pull up the costs I paid to Mr Stazcek up until my case was concluded in June this year. Bearing in mind my case was pretty straight forward and the positive outcome certain.

Incurve & Zebulunite, your cases seem a little more complicated than mine was, maybe a lot more paperwork to get sorted and time submitting the paperwork and waiting for answers.

Anyway, I will post the fee breakdown later this evening and you can take a look and sort of determine if Mr Staczek services suit you.

Cheers