Here's an interesting article about the procedure for confirming Polish citizenship. It specifically refers to the situation of Polish Jews who emigrated to Israel (and quotes Ilan Charsky), but should be of interest to anyone wanting to acquire Polish citizenship.

"Polish 'foot-dragging' may lead to survivors losing restitution eligibility"

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? ... 2FShowFull

 

Re: Polish citizenship

Correction: I meant if your GRANDMOTHER took Australian citizenship...

 

Re: Polish citizenship

It seems that they are telling you that the documents for Goldy Racheli Borek are not in the archive, but rather you should try contacting the civil status office instead, since the documents are not old enough to be in the archive.

This is the address they gave you at the bottom of the note:

Urząd Stanu Cywilneno w Poddebicach, ul. Lodzka 17/21. 99-200 Poddebice

 

Re: Polish citizenship

It sounds to me like you have enough documents.

You don't mention if someone is going to Warsaw for you in person or if you are filing all of this by mail from another country
(which is not even an option by the way).
If someone is going in person, chances are that if all three applicants share the same ancestor, then the clerk will simply look at the originals, make 3 photocopies copies of your ancestor's documents, and give them back, and use the copies, since they have already seen the original notarized and apostilled documents. They will most probably keep the original notarized and apostilled copies related to each of the three applicants though (such as your birth certificate).

 

Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread! I only wish I had found it sooner. It seems there are many attorneys (and translators) out there who are more than happy to take your money to apply, but don't tell the whole story. I have had two lawyers and a translator tell me no problem, yes you qualify!, (Charsky included) just pay us a retainer and we'll take care of it, but of course they also say that they can't guarentee the results

My grandmother was born in Poland in 1903 and came to the US with her parents in 1911. As far as I know, she never returned to Poland. Thus she is in the pre 1920 group. My father was born in the US in 1934, his father was a US citizen. At the time my father was born, she was not a US citizen. She did not aquire US citizenship until 1957. I do have her birth certificate which I recieved from polish Embassy in 1993. I also have her naturalization papers. Her birthplace was Lukowiec, which is within the borders of Poland today.

I have two "problems"

The first, is the pre 1920 issue
The second is in 1934 women did not have the right to pass citizenship. That was changed in the early '50's.

Has anyone been succesful in obtaining a citizenship in the pre 1920's group? How about the part where women were not allowed to pass citizenship? When the law was passed in the early '50's, was it effective on a retroactive basis?

I guess I will find out either way, since I sent everything off to the Polish Consulate in a few weeks ago. Sounds like a longshot though.


Thanks!

 

Hi Vela,
How did you find out that women could not transmit citizenship before 1951? If that is true, it goes along with my thought that Polish women may have also lost their citizenship by marrying a foreigner during the pre-1951 period. In terms of citizenship, women worldwide were definitely second-class citizens up until relatively recently. Everything I've read would lead me to believe that the 1951 law was not retroactive. The very issues under discussion here (inequality of the sexes for transmitting citizenship and retroactivity of modern citizenship laws) are currently making news in Canada, where it has been discoverd that up to 200,000 people may have lost (or are at risk of losing) Canadian citizenship under old laws that are now viewed as violations of equal rights.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/lostcanadians/

 

I am not sure where I heard about it, but I believe it was through a series of email exchanges I had with Charsky.

Italy passed a similar law in 1948, which allowed women to pass on citizenship. Prior to 1948 women could not pass it on. However, it was my understanding that the law was retroactive.

 

The Italian law was retroactive, but the date it was retroactive to was January 1948. So, only from that date can a woman transmit citizenship to her descendants. The date for a woman to pass on citizenship to a child in the UK was set at 1962. In Canada it is set by law at 1977 (though there have been some lawsuits challenging that).

If it is true that Polish-citizen females could not transmit citizenship before 1951, it will unfortunately have a negative impact on your case and that of others who have posted in this forum.

 

I found an "official" answer to the pre-1918 issue on another website. It says nothing regarding the issue of women transmitting citizenship, however.

"Recently, I emailed the Polish Embassy in the U.S. regarding this very question. Here is their response:

In reply to your e-mail regarding the question of eligibility for the Polish citizenship, please be advised that many people of Polish descent ask about valid claims to Polish citizenship.

However, the issue is of complicated nature. Since our law provides for the so called "blood" type of citizenship, it is possible even for third generation to successfully claim the right to Polish passport. The only question that remains is whether one's descendants were able to pass Polish citizenship to their offspring in a consecutive manner.

The main principle of our law was and still is the exclusiveness of Polish nationality. Polish law does not recognize dual citizenship of its citizens. While current Polish law does not forbid Polish citizens from becoming the citizens of a foreign state by birth or naturalization, Polish authorities shall recognize that citizens as a Polish citizen only. A Polish citizen may acquire foreign citizenship with a full effect under Polish law once he/she receives a permission to renounce Polish citizenship granted by the President of the Republic of Poland. Unfortunately, it was not always like that. When Poland regained independence in 1918 we had to cope with a difficult task to make one state from three partition zones, accommodating many minorities as well. That fact was behind the very restrictive Citizenship Act of 1920. It's provisions were upheld also by March Constitution of 1921. That law which was in effect until January 1951 provided for automatic loss of Polish citizenship in case of foreign naturalization or service in a foreign armed forces. In practical terms, those who emigrated and get naturalized under that law could not pass citizenship to their children.

If the ancestors who came to the United States were born while Poland did not existed, before Poland regained independence in 1918, it means that they came to the United States as Polish nationals, but not Polish citizens.

Since the citizenship is a sort of an artificial concept, it is sometimes difficult to understand why people who emigrated from Poland under partitions had not been considered Polish citizens. However, as Poland did not existed as a state at that time, those Poles who traveled to America, traveled there as citizens of Germany, Austria and Russia.

Taking the above into consideration such ancestors could not pass Polish citizenship to their children because they were not Polish citizens themselves.

According to Polish Citizens Act of 1920 only people who lived on territory of Poland in 1920 and not being citizens of other country could be recognized as Polish citizens.

Under the law of 1962 the President of the Republic of Poland can grant Polish citizenship, but an alien is eligible to apply for the citizenship, only in case he or she has resided in Poland as a lawful permanent resident for the period of at least 5 years. The granting of the citizenship can be a subject to submission of evidence of the loss or renunciation of foreign citizenship.

Sincerely,

Consular Division
Embassy of Poland in Washington D.C."

 

AlphaZip,
That is the clearest explanation I have seen yet!

If your ancestor left Poland before 1920, they had Polish nationality, but NOT Polish citizenship.

If the ancestor was a resident of Poland in 1920, they got Polish citizenship.

If your ancestor who left Poland after 1920, and later naturalized in a foreign country, or joined a foregn army, prior to 1951, they would have voided thier Polish citizenship.

If you ancestor naturalized in a foreign country after 1951, they kept thier Polish citizenship, unless they explicitely renounced it.




So you need to ask your ancestor:


1) What year did you leave Poland?
a) before 1920
b) during or after 1920
c) Never

If (a) then the ancestor does not have Polish citizenship to begin with, and they cannot pass it on to you.

If (b) or (c) then continue to question (2).





2) What year did your ancestor naturalize and gain foreign citizenship?
a) before 1951
b) during or after 1951
c) Never

If (a) then they lost thier Polish citizenship, and are not eligible to pass it on to you.

If (b) or (c) continue to question (3)





3) What year did your ancestor join the armed forces of a foreign country?
a) before 1951
b) during or after 1951
c) never

If (a) then they lost thier Polish citizenship, and are not eligible to pass it on to you.

If (b) or (c) continue to question (4)




4) Did your ancestor every officially renoince thier Polish citizenship by sending the request to the Polish authorities?
a) yes
b) no

If (a) then they lost thier Polish citizenship, and are not eligible to pass it on to you.

If (b) then they are a Polish citizen, even if they are deceased, and this Polish citizenship can be passed on to you.

 

Could you give me advise about any ways to get docs that confirm Polish citizenship from my grandparents.

They both were born in 1914 in a countryside near Kovel', Volyn' region (now is Ukraine) and were married at 1932.
All documents that I have (birth certificate and marriage certificate) were issued by authorities of ukraine in 1964. In that marriage certificate both nationalities marked as "-".

Where i can found these documents issued by polish authorities?
Could you advise me contacts of attorney in Warsaw?

 

Kovel was only Polish between 1921 & 1939. (See information at http://www.geocities.com/mrheckman/kovel). I assume that Ukraine now has all the civil records for the town, so it seems unlikely that you could get Polish documents for the same events. To claim Polish citizenship by descent, I think you would need to find a Polish document (more than a birth certificate) stating that at least one of your grandparents was a Polish citizen.

However, provision 4 of the 1951 Polish Citizenship Act stated that a person is not a Polish citizen, even though he/she had Polish citizenship on 31 August 1939, if he/she resides permanently outside Poland AND: 1) If due to the change of Polish borders he/she obtained foreign nationality in accordance with international agreements or 2) If a person is of Russian, Bielarussian, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian and Estonian nationality or 3) If a person is of German nationality unless the spouse of such person has Polish citizenship and resides in Poland.

So, if your grandparents had or gained Russian/Ukrainian citizenship during or after WWII, they would not have been considered Polish as of the 1951 Act.

I found one Warsaw lawyer online who says he has handled citizenship requests, though he doesn't seem to specialize in that area of law:

http://staczek.com/en/index.html

Also, here's the website for Polish lawyers in the U.S. who deal with Polish citizenship matters:

http://www.polishcitizenship.net

 

Thank you fou your answer, alphazip!

Have I a chance to claim to Polish citizenship from my mother, who was born in 1943 to my grandparents. I suppose that in this year my grandparents has not gained ukrainan citizenship and still being Polish citizens.
Second reason is that Polish goverment recognized new border line in 1945, 2 years after birthday of my mother. I suppose that Polish goverment recognized this area as Polish before 1945.

 

Where was your mother born?

The website I referred you to states that Kovel was only Polish from 1921-1939, though it may be, as you state, that Poland didn't agree to the border shift until the end of the war in 1945. That certainly makes sense, because Poland was occupied territory until 1945. In any case, your grandparents were Russian citizens at birth. If they were still in the same town during the period when it was Polish, they would have been considered Polish citizens. However, you would need some documentation showing that they had Polish citizenship during that period. The Polish government does not accept birth certificates, even if Polish, as proof of citizenship. You would then have to show that your mother was born while her parents were still Polish. Because of the border change and the fact that your grandparents were Russian citizens at birth, then Russian (Soviet) citizens after WWII, I think your case for Polish citizenship would be very difficult to establish. I would suggest contacting a lawyer.

 

My mother was born at the same place, countryside near Kovel.
I wonder in which state (Poland or Ukraine) she was born in 1943? I am wonder of opinions of polish officials.

 

I would say that the 1951 citizenship law deals with your situation. Your family was Polish for a time, but because of the border shift became Ukrainian (USSR) citizens after the war. Notice that the act says that even if they were Polish before the war, they are not in 1951. So, the Polish citizenship of people in that area was removed retroactively IF they gained another citizenship. Of course, this is only my opinion from my reading of the law and you should contact Polish officials or a lawyer for their views.

 

That's great news that you found those old documents, especially the Polish passport! I would say that the fact that your great-grandfather is included in the passport does, indeed, indicate that he had Polish citizenship. I would not let the original Polish passport out of your hands, but you will need to have a copy made (certified as true by a notary) and send it along with 1) an application for confirmation of Polish citizenship, 2) ASSUMING THIS IS YOUR PATERNAL LINE...copies with apostilles of your great-grandfather's birth certificate, your grandfather's birth certificate, your father's birth certificate, your birth certificate, 3) same for the marriage certificates of each, 4) possibly death certificates...ask the consulate, 5) a biography of yourself in Polish, 6) a couple passport photos (see dimensions for Polish passport). All of this needs to be sent to the Polish consulate covering your area, along with the appropriate fee (or you could use Curiousgeorge's method of giving someone in Warsaw a power of attorney...or go thru a lawyer). If you go the consulate route, expect a wait of at least 18 months. If the answer is positive, you will need to register all the certificates mentioned above in Poland (they don't return the originals at each stage of the process, so you might want to get extra certificates right at the start). After that is done, you can apply for a passport. See previous posts to get more details of the entire process. If this is not your paternal line (father's father's father) there may be the added problem that women may not have been able to transmit citizenship before 1951 (see previous discussion).

 

An update on my case.

My proof of Polish Citizenship was approved a week ago!

So that stage only took 8 months doing it directly in Warsaw using a power of attorney

 

I used the same link to my Polish ancestor.

My father and mother are Polish citizens. I was born in Canada, and they put my picture and my name in my mother's Polish passport when I was a child.

I asked the consulate if this proved my Polish citizenship. They said that simply being listed in a parent's passport is not proof enough once the person (me) is an adult. My brother, who was BORN in Poland falls into the same category.

This puts my brother and your father in the same category.

Further, they told me that it was NOT concrete proof of my parent's Polish citizenshipt either, since the passport is a travel document, and not a proof of citizenship. Strange I agree, but keep with me here.

The parent could have lost thier citizenship for many reasons since the passport is long expired, therefor the authorities will need to investigate the person's records. Furthermore, since the law of August 30, 2006 says that if the person is not in posession of an UNEXPIRED passport, then the only proof they have of Polish citizneship, is the document that we are all trying to get, which confirms the person's Polish citizenship. Even Polish citizens LIVING in Poland have the same problem! (the lesson here is don't let your Polish passport expire before you apply for the renewal.)

This all seems very dishearttening, I know, but stay with me before you give up.

Personally I used my parent's Polish passport, as proof of thier citizenship, even though it was expired. It turns out that although the expired passport is not EXPLICIT proof of citizensip this is a great starting point for the authorities when they research your case.

Mine got approved, so if your ancestor did not somehow lose thier citizenship between the time the passport expired, and now, your case should be able to get approved using this document as well.

Why am I telling you this? I want to you know that you've got a great lead now that you got this passport, on the same token, you also need to understand its NOT a slam dunk case just yet.

You have enough to base your application on, so do it.

 

What helps MMassey's situation is that his great-grandfather acquired U.S. citizenship by being born in the U.S., not by naturalizing. Therefore, no one in his link back to Poland would have lost citizenship by naturalizing between 1920 and 1951. Another way of losing citizenship would have been that his ancestor served in a foreign army. However, it would seem that the ancestor who was an adult during the loss period was his grandmother. While possible that his grandmother was in the military, it's unlikely.