Two of my great-grandparents were born in what's nowadays Podhajce, Ukraine and Narol, Poland (then Austria-Hungary).

Does two great-grandparents still satisfy the requirements for application? And does a "Ukrainian" Pole count?

If not, I have two more Polish great-grandparents - just need to find the birth records.

And the major thing - I don't speak Polish. If I can learn it, when do I need to demonstrate knowledge of it (assuming I can find a Polish speaker to help with the initial paperwork)?

 

Pawel,
Keep one important factor in mind. Polish law dictates that even if you were born in Poland, you don't necessarily have Polish citizenship, since you get Polish citizenship by proving that your parents have Polish citizenship.

The same goes for one's parents and grandparents and great-grandparents. They need to prove their parent's were citizens at time of their birth... Therefore even if your great-grand parents were considered to have been born in Poland, they are not necessarily Polish citizens, since their parents need to have had Polish citizenship.

Another important factor is the year when they were born, as mentioned by alphazip in an earlier post on this thread on Mar 07, 2006. Since Polish citizenship law has changed several times over the last century, it’s possible that your great-grandparents lost their citizenship due to another factor.

The bottom line is in a case like this, you won't really know for sure unless you try and make the application, and let the Polish authorities investigate your lineage. They will also tell you what other supporting docs you will need to prove your great-grandparents citizenship, like possibly an exit/entry record, or something stating they are Polish citizens. You say you have another set of Polish great-grandparents, so if I were you I would try to get their docs to support your case as well.

 

The other caveat is that it often requires that you enter the root word for many terms, so removing the conjugation can be tricky if your not familiar with Polish.

 

I just put it in as written and can generally figure it out from there. It's not perfect, but better than nothing if a person (such as myself) doesn't read or write Polish.

Curiousgeorge, what is your opinion regarding the possibility of people whose ancestors left Poland before 1918 (and never went back) proving a right to citizenship? In my case, my father did leave Poland as a child just before WWI, but went back to live there between the wars and luckily had a document describing him as a Polish citizen from that period. Without it, I wouldn't have been declared a Polish citizen, because I was told that records from before Poland was reconstituted in 1918 don't establish citizenship. I notice that some people here are trying to make a claim based on great-grandparents who left in 1911, etc. Your thoughts?

 

Curious...another question: On this form that you pointed me to (http://www.polishconsulatechicago.org/f ... rmsNR8.pdf) what is written after "Chicago,....." and after "Cywilgno w......."? The rest just seems to be my name, my foreign address and my signature. And, is that MY telephone number up there under Chicago? I assume I just write my name as spelled here in the US and they'll take care of "Polanizing" it. Thanks!

 

My opinion is that without a document that shows your father's citizenship this would not have worked. It’s even amazing that it got through, but like I've mentioned before, Polish law leaves a lot to interpretation, and those people adjudicating your case, have a wide swath of discretion.

My opinion is that they challenged you to find a doc that met their needs. They might have figured that this would be an impossible feat, as it would be for most people. You were lucky enough to have found the right doc, and you called their bluff.

Again, this is my opinion, and it’s open for friendly debate.

 

The left side going down:
- Your first and last name
- Your foreign address (in your case, your address in the US)
- Your address in Poland, if any.

The right side going down:
- Today's date (following Chicago, or change this to the city you actually signed it in)
- Your telephone number
- The civil office where you’re sending this to (let the consulate tell you where they plan to send it)
- Your signature.

This form should be notarized, preferably by the consulate or in the worst case if it is not possible to travel to the consulate, a local Polish notary.

Also the attachments section mentions:
- Long form US birth certificate, showing your parents information
- Translation of the US long form birth certificate (preferably at the consulate)
- Your parent's Polish marriage certificate. If you don't want to lose the original, have the consulate make a legalized copy for you.

I'm not sure what to do if your parents never married. But if your parents married outside of Poland, I assume you will need to register their marriage in Poland prior to getting your birth registered. Confirm this with the consulate.

My last name did not need to be Americanized, since all the letters exist in the english alphabet, therefor my last name in my docs matched my parents' Polsh docs.

I assume, if your father needed to modify his name when he arrived in the US due to missing english letters, or if the US authorities simply "spelled it as they heard it" then they will refer to the Polish marriage certificate. If your father never married in Poland, then when you register his marriage in Poland, I would think the name would be correctly spelled, since they will use your father's Polish birth certificate to register his marriage, in addition to the US marriage certificate, or they may re-issue a new Polish birth certificate with the US spelling used in his US marriage certificate.

I know that last paragraph is confusing, i'm just trying to cover every scenario. I had to read it a few times to understand what I wrote.

 

Thanks again, Curious, for being so helpful. I didn't mean to imply that my last name was changed. It's the same, except that in Polish they apparently add an accent mark over one letter. I was thinking more of my first name, which has the Polish spelling on the citizenship document. In fact, since in Polish a person's name has a different ending depending on how it is used in a sentence, my surname has an unusual-looking "skiego" ending on the document I received that I'll ignore for the purposes of completing the form. In fact, I'll just write my name as on my birth certificate and let them make any changes that they choose. I have read that if a person has a non-Polish name (e.g. Chad), the Polish authorites will often just pick a Polish name that looks or sounds the same. As to my parent's marriage certificate, they were married in the U.S. The person at the consulate said to just send along a notarized copy (apostille not necessary). I hope they don't later say that I have to register that too, at added cost.

 

As a sidebar....If your last name ends in SKI, for example, and you are female, the Polish authorities may conjugate your name in the feminine form and change the ending to SKA.

 

Possibility of Polish Citizenship

I am an an American citizen - born & raised.

My Grandmother emigrated to America from Poland, in 1955, and married an American (my Grandfather).

I have her birth cirtificate from Poland & citizenship papers.

The other side of my family is American, albeit, my lineage is all Polish - just further removed.

To add complexity to the matter, my father was born in Germany - if this even matters...

Granted I have just begun my search; but I am seeing all different things from everyone, and literally every resource, on the internet.

So my questions are:
Is it possible to gain Polish Citizenship?
Or even German citizenship?

http://www.icharsky.com/eligibility.asp
Who is this attorney? It makes the case that anyone can get it on his website...

The aforementioned Q&A is on the NY Polish Consulate website.
Ah, I am so confused...

Any help/counsel would be invaluable.

-Mike

 

Re: Possibility of Polish Citizenship

Mike, I would guess that you can claim Polish citizenship thru your grandmother because she emigrated (and probably took U.S. citizenship) after 1951. It is mainly during the 1920-1951 period that Poles who took foreign citizenships would have lost their Polish citizenship. What you have to do is 1) fill out a Passport Questionnaire (can be found online) in Polish 2) write a biography in Polish 3) have two passport-style photos taken (photos must show left ear) 4) have your grandmother's paperwork copied and notarized, as well as your parent's marriage certificate, your birth certificate, your marriage certificate, etc. 5) Send 1-4 plus a fee of around $60 to your local consulate 6) wait about 18 months or so for a decision. If approved, you will receive a document stating that you're a citizen. To get a passport, you then have to register your birth certificate in Poland, send in another Passport Questionnaire, more photos, another fee, etc. If all that is too complicated for you (or takes too long), you can have a lawyer handle the whole thing for you, for a fee of course. Lawyers usually have "contacts" and seem to be able to get things done that others can't, though I have no specific information on the firm in question. As to German citizenship, it is based, as in Poland, on lineage. If he was born in Germany to German-citizen parents, then, yes, you probably inherited German citizenship also. However, if he took U.S. citizenship (i.e. was naturalized) before you were born (or possibly even while you were a minor...not sure about that), then he would have lost German citizenship and wouldn't have passed it on to you. If he was born in Germany while his father was a U.S. serviceman stationed in Germany, he would not have become a German citizen. Germany generally does not allow multiple citizenships, but an exception is if you are born with another citizenship (e.g. if you were born with both German and U.S. citizenships, Germany doesn't make you renounce the U.S. citizenship).

 

Thanks Alphazip for the reply.

After days of scouring the internet I believe I found what I was looking for... thoughts are welcome

http://www.mswia.gov.pl/index_eng.php?dzial=19&id=28

 

Disregard the last post... it's late and it makes no sense.

Alphazip,

The biggest issue with my case is that no where, though my research, does anything say you can have Polish Citizenship passed through 1 grandparent (my circumstance).

There are pleanty of sites that note from parents directly it is ok... so my logic on the manner is that since my Grandmother never truly gave up her citizenship, it is automatically passed to her son, my father. Thus, I would be able to get Polish citizenship by default.

Is this rationale logical?

Also, do you have a copy of the Polish Citizenship Act?

Thank you,
Mike

 

nymike83,
Here is the act right from the Sejm:

http://isip.sejm.gov.pl/servlet/Search? ... 0049Lj.pdf

 

Yes, Mike, in my opinion, you should be able to claim citizenship thru your grandmother, because she would have passed her Polish citizenship on to her son (your father), and he would have passed it on to you. I see no requirement that a person have two Polish grandparents, nor do you have to speak Polish or have a Polish cultural identity, etc.

This link provides information on the current (1962) citizenship act: http://www.polishembassy.ca/news_details.asp?nid=58

This link provides information regarding previous (1920, 1951) citizenship acts: http://www.polishembassy.ca/news_details.asp?nid=185

This question/answer on the New York Polish Consulate site (http://www.polishconsulateny.org/index.php?p=43) deals with your question:

"Q: I am a Polish citizen. My spouse is a US citizen. Our children are born in the US and are US citizens. Are they also Polish citizens?
A: YES. Children born from couples of mixed nationality loose their Polish citizenship only by parents’ declaration made within three months from the child’s birth."

So, if your grandmother had asked that question, the answer would have been that her son, your father, inherited her Polish citizenship unless she explicitly declared that she didn't want him to do so. Therefore, your father would be Polish, and you would have inherited that status thru him.

One issue having to do with inheriting thru the female line is that many countries had laws in the not too distant past stating that a woman who married a foreigner lost the citizenship of her birth and acquired the citizenship of her husband. While this provision may have been part of the 1920 Polish citizenship act (I don't know), it is doubtful that it was included in the 1951 act. It is the 1951 act that governed your grandmother's actions if she emigrated in 1955. (I only mention this issue because the NY Consulate site does have a Q&A about the loss of citizenship by marriage.)

If, as you say, you have your grandmother's Polish birth certificate and her Polish passport describing her as a Polish citizen, you just have to get your U.S. documents together and apply thru the consulate for a "confirmation of possession or loss of Polish citizenship".

 

Mike, another thing to consider is the issue of conscription (required military service). Wikipedia has this: "Poland has a compulsory service term of nine months for all mature men (three months for those with higher education). However, many of those are considered unfit for mandatory military service during peacetime. Effectively, many tens of thousands of men are drafted each autumn. Alternative service can be requested, e.g. in the police force. This is only valid if you are not attending an educational facility. Students born in 1983 or later can volunteer for military preparations, so they serve in military 6 weeks during their summer break after the finish fourth semester. After joining the European Union, many young men move abroad in order to avoid draft and quite low conditions in the Polish Army. Also many, facing very high unemployment in the country, join forces voluntarily to serve the term and later gain opportunity to get a well paid jobs in military or police." I think you wrote earlier that you're a student, the prime age for being drafted. If you do gain Polish citizenship and if you visit Poland while you're draft-age (17-49), it is possible that you could run into trouble. I have read of this happening in other countries, for example, Italy. Perhaps Poles who have their permanent residence outside Poland are not required to serve in the military. It's something you should definitely check with the consulate about.

 

Thank you Alphazip for all your thoughts...

I think it is also interesting to note the following:
As I stated before, my father was born in Germany in 1944.
He did not emigrate to America, along with my Grandmother, until 1955. (My Grandfather was an American citizen at the time).

I gathered this by looking at his US citizenship cirtificate.
So my question is, what was he before he became a US citizen?
We have no documents stating he was anything...
The idea of being granted German citizenship isn't likely since they follow "jus sanguinis" policies. So was he a Polish citizen?

Thanks again for your feedback Alphazip.

~Mike

 

On more thing...

Alright, so my Grandmother has a Cirtificate of Naturalization.
My father has a Cirtificate of Citizenship.
By referring to the explaniation below, provided by the USCIS, my father was granted American citizenship at birth from my Grandfather.
So my question is does Poland have the same protocol? After all, my Grandmother was Polish, not American, at the time.

http://www.uscis.gov/graphics/howdoi/replace_cert.htm

Thanks
~Mike

 

Most likely, your grandfather registered your father's birth at a U.S. consulate in Germany, because he planned to return to the U.S. at some point and wanted your father to be registered as a U.S. citizen. Registering a birth abroad is standard procedure in such cases. Would your grandmother have wanted to register your father's birth in Poland, a communist state? I don't know your grandmother's situation, but most people who left communist countries during that period tried to have as little as possible to do with them after they left. In any event, if you now want Polish citizenship for yourself, you would need to follow the procedure for confirming your citizenship that curiousgeorge and I outlined earlier. In my opinion (and I'm not a lawyer), again, yes, you definitely have a claim to Polish citizenship thru your grandmother. As you probably know, the sudden interest by many people in getting Polish citizenship is due to Poland joining the EU. Having a Polish passport enables a person to settle and work throughout the EU.

 

I just looked again at the year of your father's birth. We're talking about the dying days of WW II here. Poland was conquered by Germany in '39, then "liberated" by the Soviets in '45. Much of Poland was in ruins. I don't think the idea of registering foreign births was uppermost in the minds of German & Russian officials at that time. Your father was a U.S. citizen at birth as being the son of a U.S. citizen. He was also a Polish citizen at birth UNLESS Poland had any kind of provision in the 1920 Citizenship Act whereby women who married foreigners lost their Polish citizenship. (I know the British rules at that time did...if a British woman married an American in (say) 1945, she ceased to be a British subject. That wasn't changed until 1949.) I don't understand the scenario exactly whereby your father was born in Germany in 1944 (at that time, an enemy country) to an American man (military?) and Polish woman (refugee?), and they all stayed in Germany until 1955.