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✎ EN READ THIS! Regarding employment of non-EEA National (UK)

Discussion in 'Immigration UK' started by polskasweetie, Aug 9, 2005.

  1. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    THIS INFORMATION IS STRAIGHT FROM AN OFFICER OF THE IND WHICH I CALLED TODAY, 09 AUG 2005, CALL TIME 9:45AM.

    If you are to call the IND Office (0870 606 7766), make sure to start calling in the morning when they open around 9AM, as your wait time will be lesser. I only waited for about 5 minutes and got the male voice right away. After a few minutes, an IND officer named Joseph picked up my call.

    Based on my conversation with him, those of you who are non-EEA Nationals married to an EEA National (I'm assuming you are here in the UK on an EEA Family Permit), the question of employment has been unclear as to whether you can work or not. The IND Officer said that YES YOU CAN WORK IMMEDIATELY based on the EEA Family Permit stamp in your passport. It's true that your right to work is inherent from the marriage to the EEA National, but once you start looking for employment and they seek proof that you can work here, then the EEA Family Permit is the proof you show (considering that your EEA Family Permit is current and valid).

    A few scenarios as examples:

    Scenario A:
    The non-EEA National finds employment first than the EEA National. The EEA National can file for EEC1 (residence permit filed by an EEA National) on the "self sufficient person" status based on the fact that the non-EEA spouse is employed and the income is enough to support both persons. At this point you guys can decide if the EEA National is to work or not anymore, as the EEC1, once approved, already gives you the right of freedom of movement in the UK. For the EEA National (specially the New Accession States), this in essence bypasses the 12 month wait while the EEA National is employed before filing for the EEC1. Let's say that the EEC1 was filed already based on the above situation, and later on while the EEC1 is being processed, the EEA National gets employed, the EEA National (only those from the New Accession States) STILL has to register with the Worker Registration Scheme (WRS), as this is a UK Government regulation, but you don't need to file another EEC1 after 12 months of continous employment, as it has already been filed. Bottomline here is that, the government knows that either or both persons are employed and if such is the case, then the EEC1 will be approved. Reasoning for this is that the government just wants to make sure that those who stay here are employed and will not be a publich charge to the government (individuals seeking government benefits).

    Scenario B:
    The EEA National finds work first. If he/she is from the A-8, then the person registers for the WRS and once the WRS card and other documents are received by the EEA National, then the non-EEA spouse can file for the EEC3 (residence permit filed by a non-EEA National). It is important that the non-EEA spouse waits for the WRS documents as you need to write the WRS Reference Number in the EEC3 form. This is important as the non-EEA spouse usually is given a 6 month validity on the EEA Family Permit on the passport and the way to extend that is either filing for an EEA Family Permit extension (if that exists at all as I'm not sure) or filing for the EEC form, whether EEC1 or EEC3, as any of these forms, once filed, is valid for the EEA National and the non-EEA spouse, irrespective of who files which form.

    Now, given this reliable information, I hope this is of great assistance to those who still have questions regarding these matters (just like me!) My wife is Polish and I'm the non-EEA spouse, and we've been searching for information regarding empoyment for awhile now. At least with this phone call I made, it is now CRYSTAL CLEAR that non-EEA spouses can work immediately upon arriving here in the UK from wherever you're coming from.

    Should you have questions, just post them here and I'll try to answer them. Or call the IND with the number I used above, and get the information staright from them, which is what I typed here anyway.

    Now I'm off to look for work... ;)
     
  2. EasyExpat

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    I put the message as sticky as it may interest a lot of people.
    I thought the your right to work was inherited from the right to work of your EEA spouse, therefore he/she needed to work for you to be able to work... :headscratch:

    I read a bit about the Worker Registration Scheme which applies to the New Accession States. I assume that in your case 2, you will have the 12 month period applying?

    I would think that the EEA national has to fill a EEC1 form and the non-EEA a EEC3? Is that different in case of a family?

    Good luck! :thumbsup:
     
  3. petkanov

    petkanov Member

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    I Agree with Polskasweetie

    I agree with the info given. I also got the same info. I happen to know a caseworker there and asked and was told the same thing. I was also told that it most likely will take about 6 months for such application to be prossecced. This is due to a backlog. I know that about a year ago these applications were processed usually within 3 weeks. Even now some people get them within 3-4 months so the 6 months is not necessarily for everyone. Please note that by April 2006 there will not be such a thing as a residence permit for eu nationals. Family members will receive ID card with which will be able to travel. They will be able to apply in person. This is due to EU council directive which will be transponded into law in all EU the latest april 2006.
     
  4. EasyExpat

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    Re: I Agree with Polskasweetie

    ID cards do not exist currently in the UK. It is discussed in parliament currently and there is a strong opposition regarding the cost. So nothing definite yet.
     
  5. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Thanks for making this a sticky, and I was indeed hoping it would be made into one, as the info is from a reliable and recent source, thus the info is as frsh as it can be. :)

    That's what I thought as well, and all this time I was waiting for my EEA wife to start work so I can file for the EEC3, which at my understanding, was a residence permit AND my right to work, as she is already employed. But I read another post in one of the topics that prompted me to call IND to clear it once and for all, straight from the horse's mouth as they say. ;-)

    This is applicable if my wife, the EEA National, got employed first and at the time of filing the WRS and receiving it, I don't have employment yet. But the IND Officer said that if I get work first, then she can file for EEC1 right away and technically bypassing the 12 month wait. I made this clear with the IND Officer as I asked him what if shortly after I find work and get employed and the EEC1 was filed already and is in process, my wife finds work, what then? He said that since she's a citizen of the New Accession States, she just has to register for WRS, as this is a government program intended for formality,so that the UK Government can keep track of the EEA Nationals from the New Accession States getting employed, I guess for statistical purposes, so that if they need to revise certain provisions in the New Accession States Agreement, then they have the figures to back it up or justify it. He also said that since the EEC1 was already filed, then we just wait for the results of that, even though she found work because the EEC1 was filed when the conditions for filing it were met.

    No, the difference in forms is only meant for who is filing which form. The EEA National files the EEC1, if the non-EEA spouse is employed or the non-EEA spouse files for EEC3, if the EEA National is employed. If you notice here, one of the persons has to be employed prior to filing for residence permit that allows the right to freedom of movement (for both parties) and takes over the EEA Family Permit upon or before its expiration (for the non-EEA spouse). The UK government necessitates that one or both parties should be employed, so as not to dive into public funds, which can be alloted to other individuals who are in need of such benefits more, as compared to freeloaders who want to exploit governemnt programs.

    Let me even make it clearer:
    If the non-EEA spouse gets employed first, and the EEA National files for EEC1, then that residence permit is valid for both parties. The non-EEA spouse's EEA Family Permit's validity switches from what is given in the passport to what is stated in the EEC1 documents when they approve it. The EEA National bypasses the 12 month wait and gains the right to freedom of movement in the UK.

    If the EEA National gets employed first, then the non-EEA spouse files for EEC3 which takes over the EEA Family Permit validity, once approved. So the non-EEA spouse will now have a longer period to stay in the UK, and not just the 6 months given for EEA Family Permits. Now, after 12 months, the EEA National has to file EEC1 so that both of them have the right to freedom of moevement in the UK, without needing to file anything anymore.

    Hope this makes it a bit clearer! Thanks EasyExpat! :D
     
  6. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Re: I Agree with Polskasweetie

    I defintely agree with EasyExpat. I've been following this since I was in the US and there has been very strong opposition against a National ID. Here's my take on that though.

    In the US, we have what we call a State ID (as the country is divided into 50 states) and a Driver's License, both of which are issued by the Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) of respective states. The scenario is: once you check online for the documents you need to bring, once you go to DMV you take a number and wait in line and then when you're called, you rpesent the documents, they check for authenticity and validity, and then take your picture and digital signature, and they print out the ID right then and there, and you walk out with either your State ID or Driver's License. It is inexpensive to get, with a duration of 10 years, and there is virtually no red tape involved.

    Now if they can employ a similar system here, I do not see why such a strong opposition exists. The information collected from the individual is kept conidential and encrypted, the fee involved is not costly, and you have the ID in your hands before you leave the office, then it should be fine. And believe me, the US has a far bigger problem regarding identity theft, but these are mainly due to people not doing their part in preventing it.

    That's my two cents on it....:)
     
  7. EasyExpat

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    The system is quite similar in European countries such as Germany, Italy, Spain, France. You have a card (usually a plastic card) that gives details such as date of birth, size, address, photo and a number that is unique for each card and similar to the one that you find on new digit passport.

    But England has a long history of not having an id card. Now they think that it would be like big brother with an id card, when the country is actually the first of European countries in term of CCTVs. Last time I went to pick up my credit card at the bank, they ask me for a proof of ID. I showed my library card that has no photo and they gave me my card! :rolleyes: It's abnormal, but people are not maint to have a driving licence if they do not drive, nor a passport if they do not go abroad. And a ID card does not exist.

    Now, the opposition from some (like the LibDems) at the parliament, comes also because the governement wants to implement a card with bio-tests such as iris and finger prints. Also give specific machines to authentify the card... all of that costs several £100s and I agree that the money should be spent first on other things.

    Why not having a simple ID card, not that expensive, that would be an alternative to people who do not hold a driving licence or a passport, and will make things easier to control (as it would be standard) ? Maybe because English do not like to do as others, especially when others means the rest of the European countries ... :rolleyes:
     
  8. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Exactly EasyExpat! Just start off with a simple ID, to simply identify people here in the UK, and see where that project goes. It does not involve millions of pounds to set it up. Based on what I saw in the US, they have an ID Printer that prints all the information they want to show on the ID,a nd it comes out laminated already. It's a credit card sized ID, and I'm sure materials for the ID printer and the ID itself will not be expensive, and they can recoup their investments in a matter of 2 years, maybe less.

    Now if this goes well and they still want to push the biometric high-tech ID, then they can tell the people to "upgrade" their ID to the new ones. Of course, they have to pack in more features in that biometric ID like no more signatures when showing that ID to offices or agencies, possibly incorporate your medical records, dental records, allergy information, or whatever info they want in the ID (everything can be stored in a microchip anyway), so that they can justify whatever price they want the people to pay for the "better" ID.

    I guess it's gonna be a wait and see game.... :rolleyes:
     
  9. EasyExpat

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    It's pretty scary... :AieAieAie: Let's think that someone uses you ID (saw Sandra Bullock in The Internet or something like that...?), or your ID is corrupted, or whatever virus happen and you can disappear! :eek:h:
    I prefer a simple ID, with no chip.

    All the ID of having chips or things like that is - according to B&B (Bush and Blair) - to tackle terrorism. Well, I think that they should care better about their international policy, bringing peace and not war to middle east...etc instead of harrassing their citizens with chips... one day we will have all chips in our head if they don't stop! :mad: :lol:
     
  10. Coyan

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    Yes, England has a history of not having an ID Card. Moreso in the past the use of ID Cards in other countries in Europe has led to gross abuse of human rights. For instance it was the availability of ID Cards in Europe which enabled the Nazis to round up Jews in Holland, Poland , Germany, France etc and send them to the Gas Chambers. Without the existence of ID Cards the programs of the Jews would have been very difficult. Despite having the same color , spoke the language and had similar features as the German, it was your ID Card which determined whether you were a Jew or German.

    Britain having fought against the tyranny of Germany under Hitler and to some extent the South African Apartheid system is wary about this ID Card business because it is aware of how governments can use it to the detriment of the people. And this is where the concerns and safeguards are being recommended.
     
  11. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Hahaha! Just wanted to share with you guys this bit. In the US, there's an experiment currently ongoing as to "chipping" people as a means of ID. A family in Kansas or something volunteered for this. They were implanted with a small (rice grain sized) microchip that basically contains the individual's demographics, including medical allergies, social security number, credit card number, etc. One situation where the "chip" was used was when the daughter who is 22 went to a bar and just waved her arm (the chip was near the wrist) at the doorman who had a special sensor and gives a readout of what is programmed in his device, and she was let in. Then she ordered a drink at the bar, waved her arm again over a sensor, and the bartender gaver her a drink and kept an open tab for her so she can wave her arm again when she wants to pay and leave.

    Let me remind you, this is NOT a story. It has been in the news in the US, and has been under public scrutiny for a while, until other issues came up requiring national attention.

    Weird...but maybe one day, this is how we all will be! Argh! :mad:
     
  12. EasyExpat

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  13. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Wow! It's already more widespread than I thought it was! :eek: :eek:
     
  14. EasyExpat

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  15. rishi_gosain

    rishi_gosain New Member

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    Visa extension of non-EEA National (UK)

    Now, after 12 months, the EEA National has to file EEC1 so that both of them have the right to freedom of moevement in the UK, without needing to file anything anymore.

    You have written that both can apply in form EEC1, whereas I am in the same position, i.e. my wife is polish on WRS and i am an Indian on EEC3 extension now, now I am trying to extend my visa and find clause 7.3 on the form perplexing as it clearly says that if the applicant has ever held or holds WRS, fill form EEC3, which in turn clearly is not for over 12 months of stay.
    which form should I fill up??
     
  16. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Re: Visa extension of non-EEA National (UK)

    If you read past posts, you will see there that what I have mentioned is that, who files for the EEC form depends on who got the job first. And I was told in that phone call that in case the non-EEA found employment first, then the EEA spouse can file for EEC1 on the "self sufficient person" grounds, as the salary of the non-EEA spouse can support both. This EEC1 filing is essentially for both persons, and in essence, bypasses the 12 month wait for the residence permit for New Accession States citizens.

    To summarize, the EEC form (in the situation above) gives the EEA spouse freedom of movement without the 12 month wait as the non-EEA spouse is employed (which is what the UK Government wants to know), and the non-EEA spouse's EEA Family Permit gets converted to a residence permit, the duration of which is the Home Office's discretion.

    Should you still have concerns, do call the Home Office at the number I called in the first post in this thread.
     
  17. vortex

    vortex Member

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    Non EU family visitor (without family permit)

    Hi every1

    I have the the same situation as many of you but with a diff. I am a non eu - non visa national and my wife is Polish. She is going to london in a few weeks and after she found work and registered with the WRS, I am going there to join her.

    The thing is, because I'm not in my home country at the moment I cannot apply for a family permit but, since I am a non visa national I don't need a permit if I'm going to visit my wife for less than six months.

    I also know that I should be able to work during these six months but might have problems to prove that to a potential employer. What we don't know though, is if I would have to provide evidence of sufficient funds to the Immigration Officer at the port of entry and what do I do in my situation once I am in the UK?

    Would I be able to apply for a residents stamp (form EEC3) in light of the fact that my wife has not completed her 1st year under the WRS and thus does not yet have a residents permit herself?

    We would really appreciate your input.
    Thanx guys!
     
  18. Anna Sayan

    Anna Sayan Active Member

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    to polskasweetie

    Hi,

    Before I was writing with your wife about family permit, but now I would like to ask you question about family permit, as you had a chance to talk with officer.

    Foe example I will find a job, regiser myself (WRS), get card etc, then register my husband (follow stops which you mentioned). What if the family permit which my husband holds, will finish? We got it on 11.07.2005 and it is valid for 6 months. Does it change anything?
    If you know anything about it, please let me know.
    Thank you for your help so much. Have a nice day,
    Ania
     
  19. polskasweetie

    polskasweetie Addicted member

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    Re: to polskasweetie

    Ania,

    When you say "register" I hope you mean that since you found work first, then your husband will file for the residence permit. Even if his EEA permit expires after 6 months, and based on your date, it should expire January 2006. As long as the EEC3 has been applied for and dated by the post office before the EEA permit in the passport expires, then you should be fine. Because at the time of filing, your husband's status here was current and legal, and it's not your fault that they don't process these applications faster than they should.

    Remember, what the officer told me was, as long as the papers are filed BEFORE the date on the permit expires, then it is fine and that you should have nothing to worry about.
     
  20. Anna Sayan

    Anna Sayan Active Member

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    thank you for the explanation - expiry of family permit

    Thank you so much for your explanation. You are right, my husband's family permit will expire in January 2006.

    I am still looking for a job (we came here in August), that's why I started to worry, because time is going fast ... But now I understood I have time :) but of course I will be keep looking.

    Thanks again for your help and tell hi from me to your wife,
    Ania
     
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